Odds for T14?

Comments

• havinagrattim Member

  February 2021 edited February 2021 94 karma

  I think you're a competitive applicant for T6-T14, as I think your 170 puts you at the median for most if not all of them, and same with your GPA. If you can get it up to a 3.9 that will put you in an even better position. I know that undergrad ranking doesn't matter that much, but from what I've seen at my own school and from what I've heard, it provides important context for your GPA i.e. they know you're likely surrounded by other high-achieving, competitive students (not that other students aren't, but obviously T20s are incredibly difficult to get into, and AOs know this).

  If you want to focus on expanding your softs, it's important to prioritize depth over breadth i.e. you should focus on deepening and expanding your involvement and achievements vis-a-vis your current ECs, as opposed to making a laundry list of activities. Awards and achievements, such as published research, scholarships, making a difference in student orgs, on campus, etc. are great ways to improve your softs.

  I don't think I'm qualified to give advice regarding whether or not your should retake the LSAT, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you're not aiming for the T5 then I don't think you need to retake. If you are aiming for Chicago or Columbia, then it might help to retake if you're confident you can get at least a 172-3. If you're really hoping to go to HYS then you would want to work to get around a 175+. The best way to gauge whether or not you should retake is to look up the 509 report for your top choices. You should aim to at least be at the 50% for both GPA and LSAT. Statistically, it's even better if you're at the 75%.
• XXXDG912 Alum Member

  February 2021 37 karma

  Thank you so much for your comment! I guess focusing on my undergrad will be the right choice to make for now. Again, thank you!
• VerdantZephyr Member ⭐

  February 2021 2054 karma

  Definitely retake, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't also aim to increase that GPA. A 170 is pretty average, so if you have any particular school in the T14 you want to go to you will definitely want to do what you can to stand out more than being at both medians.

  You have an entire year to raise your LSAT. I am not clear on your timeline regarding your mandatory army service in South Korea, will you be starting that after you graduate this spring? That could also definitely serve as a strong soft factor if you are able to incorporate it into either your application materials or your interviews. It might slot nicely into a diversity statement as well as your resume.

  I think @havinagrattim makes good points, but I will say having a good shot statistically at the T14 in general is not the same as having great odds at each given school you want to go to individually. It doesn't sound like you have a single dream school yet, but getting your GPA and LSAT both above median at whatever school you most want to go to will take you from a "pretty good odds for the T14" to "pretty good odds of getting in at each T14 you applied to and maybe a scholarship at that dream school."

  Also, how important your softs are versus increasing their medians probably depends on which schools you are looking at. Northwestern and Virginia value softs more than Georgetown or NYU from what I understand, while at Yale or Stanford you will likely need great softs AND to support their numbers.
• XXXDG912 Alum Member

  February 2021 edited February 2021 37 karma

  Thank you for your comment @VerdantZephyr !

  My service terminates in this year's June (can't wait) and I am planning to go back to college in August. I do have few fresh recent PTs remaining (like 6 ish?) and I think retaking the LSAT is definitely one of the options that I am considering.

  My dream school is actually Columbia and I know that the odd is very slim with the stats that I have rn and honestly, I will be more than thrilled if I can get into any T6-T14 law school. However, my concern is that considering the score inflation that followed after the Flex administration and the more competitive nature of this year's cycle than the previous ones, (I don't have specific evidence to back this claim but impression I get from the Lawschool Numbers does tell me that bar is a little higher than before) 170 might not be enough to guarantee that I get into at least one of the T14 law schools.

  So... after reading a little elaborated version of my story, do you think retaking the LSAT would be in my best interest [if you were in my situation]? Your response will be greatly appreciated!

  Addition)
  Obviously, if I were to retake the LSAT I will have to bear the risk of not improving by much or even end up having my score depressed. Do you think is it worth taking that risk?
• 6 Likes

  RyanazR Member

  February 2021 edited February 2021 208 karma

  @XXXDG912 I have heard from a bunch of people that the T14s really care more about the "holistic" applicant this year. I had a couple of friends who had high 170s-180 but unremarkable softs and didn't even get into HYS, so I would definitely recommend improving your softs if you can.

  ^ lmao notice my logical reasoning error. Loophole: what if my friends all had criminal records? xD
• 2 Likes

  noonawoon Alum Member ⭐

  February 2021 3481 karma

  I second that softs are very important and would recommend improving those in whatever ways you can! Also improving relationships with professors so you can get better LORs (if you don't already have great relationships with 2 profs)

  I would only retake the LSAT if you think you can score higher because of your practice tests. 170 is definitely a good enough score for a lot of the T14
• XXXDG912 Alum Member

  February 2021 37 karma

  "holistic"... I guess law school application is just becoming like a college application after all LOL. I appreciate you all for the quality advice! I think I will be focusing on finishing my undergrad strong and sporadically practice for the LSAT in the meantime. Thank you everyone!
• 1 Like

  VerdantZephyr Member ⭐

  February 2021 edited February 2021 2054 karma

  I definitely second everyone's comments about looking at the other ways to improve your application. Making sure you have a good relationship with professors to write stellar letters of recommendation is absolutely going to be critical, and maybe the best thing you can do with those numbers you have already, even if you cannot completely control it. Also, making sure they are aware what a stellar letter of recommendation looks like.

  Still retake. Not improving your score won't cost you anything unless you just completely bomb. Improving a single point at that range will help elevate you above the typical applicant. Because schools are judged by their LSAT medians, there is a huge difference between being one point below, at, and one point above. It is silly, most people could take a dozen different times and have a noticeably different high and low above their typical, but that is the nature of high stakes testing.

  I will also say that if you are talking about months out and you have already taken 80 PTs, at a certain point it may not matter if they are clean. It might, I have retaken a PT in part or full twice with a few months gap and it threw me off terribly, but that is different from a year gap and I think most people don't have the same issues with it I do. If you have already done the work to get to 170 than 6 clean PTs are fine. Use old ones to keep fresh, review content, whatever. Then use the 6 clean ones to make sure you are on form.

  Was the 170 a high score, typical score, or below average score for you? If you were averaging 173 and got a 170 than absolutely retake. If you were averaging 160 and got a 170 test day than, despite what I said earlier, maybe it isn't worth the effort. I would guess that you got around or below your typical score though, so I do think retaking is in your best interest.

  I don't have all the T14 numbers in front of me, but it looks like this year (ignoring that scores will inflate) a 170 was at median for UVA, Penn, and Chicago while a point above for Northwestern, Duke, and Michigan. At the latter two is was their 75th percentile. It was a point above the 75th percentile at Cornell and Georgetown and two points below Columbia's median but one point above their 25th. Next year's numbers will be higher when they release them, but that doesn't necessarily mean schools will plan to construct their class the following year with those numbers in mind. They are very smart people who know that this year was pretty unique, so for all that medians will bump next year, right now we just can't predict whether you will need those inflated numbers to get in. Next year will likely be another slow decision year as they sort out what they can expect to hit until late in winter/early in spring. I think a 170 will still be very competitive and that medians will likely be lower on the class admitted next year, but a 171 or 172 will be a lot safer as they try and sort out just how high they can keep their medians.

  Regardless, you have a great shot any year you apply of getting into T14 schools, and I don't mean this post to sound like you must improve your LSAT a point or two. You have the stats of a T14 student now, it is just about making your application stand out above your peers.

  An LSAT score bump is the safest way to do that, but possibly not the most important when you are talking about a 170 versus a 171. Definitely make sure those letters of rec are on point.
• 1 Like

  XXXDG912 Alum Member

  February 2021 edited February 2021 37 karma

  @VerdantZephyr Thank you for your comment!

  170 was definitely not the highest score I had but I was happy with the score regardless because I thought I kind of bombed the RC section (My PT score was around 168-172, with 175 being the highest; RC was definitely my weakest spot).

  Getting a stellar LOR would definitely be my focus once I get back to campus as the gap years incurred by my military service literally puts me back to square one as far as student-professor relationship is concerned.

  Thanks to your comment, I think I am a little more positive about retaking the exam as long as I manage to raise my PT average to 172-175 range ish... but I guess only God knows if I can make that extra one step.

  Anyways, I really appreciate your advice, as it really helped me to clear my mind! I wish best of luck to everyone who commented on this thread!
• 1 Like

  Constantine Member

  February 2021 edited February 2021 1329 karma

  This is the most competitive law school admissions cycle in 20+ years. How competitive? You could fill every single seat at the T50 with a 165+ scorer right now.
• VerdantZephyr Member ⭐

  February 2021 2054 karma

  @Constantine That is a crazy statistic. Slightly concerning as well.
• 1 Like

  LSAT Obsession Member

  February 2021 65 karma

  @Constantine said:
  This is the most competitive law school admissions cycle in 20+ years. How competitive? You could fill every single seat at the T50 with a 165+ scorer right now.

  Hi Constantine, I'm curious where you find out this information. I'm interested in taking a look as well. Thank you!