Problems with stamina rooted in fundamentals?

lsatblitz · July 2015

So I took preptest 40, scored a horrid 156. I noticed I did alright on the first two sections, but completely bombed the last two. This was my first time sitting for a PT since my cold diag a few months ago. My BR came out as a 169, still not entirely there, I know.

I noticed the only LR questions I still missed after BR were a couple of the hardest difficulty, with the rest of my problems coming from reading comp. I noticed that I missed a ton of questions at the end that I easily was able to fix through BR.

Is this common? I'm assuming there is a mixture of fundamentals and stamina that plays into this, especially since I've barely taken any full PT's, but I've been drilling and reading the trainer + bibles for over a month now. The diag score is discouraging at this point, though I'm not sure what to make of the BR score.

Pacifico · July 2015

First of all this isn't really a diagnostic, it's your first full PT after learning some sort of curriculum. I have no idea what your actual diagnostic was, but unless it was over a 160, then a 156 is not horrid, and a 169 BR is very respectable for your first time out of the gate. You really need to take at least 3-5 PTs to get a feel for where your skills really are, build some analytics, and then figure out what your real weaknesses and strengths are.

I'm sure you still have issues with your fundamentals, but for the time being you need to get used to PTing and you need to keep at them for another week or two so you can determine exactly where the shortcomings are in your fundamentals. If nothing changes after a few more PTs, hit us up and give us some more detailed info on your section by section breakdown and we'll be able to provide better advice about where to go from there.

lsatblitz · July 2015

Thanks for the response! I'll take 3-5 more practice tests over the next couple weeks and check back in.

c.janson35 · July 2015

@Pacifico said:
I'm sure you still have issues with your fundamentals, but for the time being you need to get used to PTing and you need to keep at them for another week or two so you can determine exactly where the shortcomings are in your fundamentals. If nothing changes after a few more PTs, hit us up and give us some more detailed info on your section by section breakdown and we'll be able to provide better advice about where to go from there.

100%. Too often I think gains are expected to come quickly and easily just because one has been over the curriculum a few times. It is very unlikely that you can get better at PT without doing PT, and a lot of them at that. Don't get discouraged! Just get to preptestin'. You'll see, little by little, your work start to pay off.

lsatblitz · July 2015

@c.janson35 said:
100%. Too often I think gains are expected to come quickly and easily just because one has been over the curriculum a few times. It is very unlikely that you can get better at PT without doing PT, and a lot of them at that. Don't get discouraged! Just get to preptestin'. You'll see, little by little, your work start to pay off.

I guess I just wasn't comfortable with the idea of taking several practice tests early on. A lot of people have said to not "waste" practice tests by taking several too early in the process.

@Pacifico said:
You really need to take at least 3-5 PTs to get a feel for where your skills really are, build some analytics, and then figure out what your real weaknesses and strengths are.

Do you believe there should be a time gap in between PTs in my situation? Or should I just jump right in today or tomorrow and take another PT?

Pacifico · July 2015

We say people are wasting PTs if they do them before they go through the curriculum here or with some other prep course. While some say to PT as you go, I think it's better to wait until after you've completed the curriculum so you know all the tools you should have in your tool box and can quickly figure out which ones are missing after taking a few PTs.

GordonBombay · July 2015

As everyone else has already said keep PTing. My first PT after completing the curriculum was a timed 150 / BR 166. Only a 6 point increase from my initial diagnostic. Next PT timed 154. Third PT timed 158. Fourth PT 161..... You get the idea. Just keep PTing and your score should increase over time. BR = Gains.

emli1000 · July 2015

Also, make sure you're using the LSAT Analytics to keep track of what you're missing on your PTs. So that you can focus on those sections.

lsatblitz · July 2015

Checking in - PT 46 today. 157 with a 169 BR again. Strongest section seems to be LG, worst is reading comp. I keep getting to the last passage with ~5 minutes left. LR seems to be -3 to -5 even after BR.

Gonna read up on the trainer for a few days and take another PT later on this week.

c.janson35 · July 2015

Keep practicing! Your timing will improve in RC with practice!

lsatblitz · July 2015

@GordonBombay said:
As everyone else has already said keep PTing. My first PT after completing the curriculum was a timed 150 / BR 166. Only a 6 point increase from my initial diagnostic. Next PT timed 154. Third PT timed 158. Fourth PT 161..... You get the idea. Just keep PTing and your score should increase over time. BR = Gains.

Nice to know your story, that's great motivation moving forward. I'm thinking of taking a timed RC section every day until I get up to speed.

lsatblitz · July 2015

Another PT and a 153. I haven't BR'ed yet, that's tomorrow.

Would any of you recommend me registering for the starter course? The money isn't an issue, I just want to be ready by the October test. The study schedule says that I could get through everything + 10 practice tests by the end of August if I give around 40 hours a week, which is not a problem at all for me.

I just feel like all the studying I've done in the past couple months has been dumped straight into the garbage with these 3 practice tests I've done.

What do you all think? Spend August with the starter course or keep on the track that I'm in?

For anyone wondering, I've read both the LG and LR bible, the Trainer, and I own all the cambridge bundles 1-38 for drilling, and I've gone through around 25% of it. I also have every PT up until 65 I think. I would be enrolling in the course for JY's explanations of the problems.

c.janson35 · July 2015

If the money truly isn't an issue then I don't see why you wouldn't register. 7sage is an amazing resource and it can only help you.

lsatblitz · July 2015

Thanks for your input. I'm very heavily leaning towards registering tomorrow. My only worry is that I'm too late in my studying to register for the course, but I think using all of September to PT after completing the course in August will be fine.

splitterhopeful · July 2015

@lsatblitz said:
Would any of you recommend me registering for the starter course?

Heck yes, heck yes, and heck yes. JY's lessons are fantastic. I realize I'm forgoing a few PT's to go through them (I'm also on a tight schedule), but it's definitely been a good trade-off in my opinion.

lsatblitz · July 2015

Just in case someone's in the same boat as I was (low PT scores, high BR reviews in the upper 160's) I wanted to check in to say that the starter course has been worth every precious moment I've spent on it so far.

The biggest change is that now I'm almost convinced that I'll be much better off taking the December test rather than the October test. I must say though, the way I look at LR questions has changed drastically already, and I"m only about 25% into the curriculum. I'm sure that this improvement will translate into better RC scores, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet.

Pacifico · July 2015

I think all the hard work on LR is what translates to RC success because the same reading skills at use in the former are what you need for the latter. As long as you don't have retention issues then the LR stuff is really key to unlocking a lot of the mystery of RC in my opinion.

lsatblitz · July 2015

@Pacifico said:
I think all the hard work on LR is what translates to RC success because the same reading skills at use in the former are what you need for the latter. As long as you don't have retention issues then the LR stuff is really key to unlocking a lot of the mystery of RC in my opinion.

I feel like a lot of my RC issues have come from being overwhelmed by the long and wordy passages. I'm a political science major at a top university, so I have taken a good amount of philosophy and theory classes that have required extensive reading. Many have said that such background in the social sciences has helped them enough to be naturally good at RC, so it's sort of discouraging that that's not the case for me. On the other hand, I've been breezing through LG ever since I was introduced to the LSAT.

I will keep pushing until I master that pesky RC section though. With JY's help, anything is possible

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@lsatblitz said:
scored a horrid 156

Plenty of folks are still able to go to law school with that score, so please don't get too down on yourself!

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@c.janson35 said:
It is very unlikely that you can get better at PT without doing PT, and a lot of them at that.

Truth here. It really just takes doing a lot of PT's, in my experience/opinion. Without the fundamentals, you'll never get beyond 160-165. Beyond that ... practice, repetition, uncovering weaknesses, and attitude!

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@lsatblitz said:
I also have every PT up until 65 I think.

I try not to give unequivocal advice lightly ... but you WILL need all PT's up to 75 (and 76 once it comes out).

@lsatblitz said:
I wanted to check in to say that the starter course has been worth every precious moment I've spent on it so far.

AWESOME. This is very encouraging to hear you say so.

@lsatblitz said:
The biggest change is that now I'm almost convinced that I'll be much better off taking the December test rather than the October test.

YES !!!! That was going to be my main comment on your thread and I am SO happy to see you've come to that wisdom yourself.

You're on a GREAT track. Keep you head up.

Trust.The.Process.

lsatblitz · July 2015

@nicole.hopkins said:
I try not to give unequivocal advice lightly ... but you WILL need all PT's up to 75 (and 76 once it comes out).

Definitely, I will be buying the remaining available practice tests once I'm done with the curriculum.

@nicole.hopkins said:
YES !!!! That was going to be my main comment on your thread and I am SO happy to see you've come to that wisdom yourself.

You're on a GREAT track. Keep you head up.

Trust.The.Process.

I appreciate your input, thank you!

lsatblitz · August 2015

Took my first PT since finishing the curriculum this morning. Still scoring about the same, but everything is drastically different in terms of timing

- I went -0 on logic games. First time ever, so that's nice
- I actually finished both LR sections with more than 5 minutes to go, went -6 on both of them though.
-Still bombing the RC section, but I actually finished the section for the first time ever. I was previously finishing the first 3 passages and guessing on the fourth one. It's nice to see that my timing has made just big jumps.

I know I should've blind reviewed the test before scoring it, but I couldn't help myself. I was really hoping to see something in the mid 160's, but I'm not quite there yet. This is all understandable, and I'm not going too hard on myself since this is my 4th full test. Going to BR now, watch the videos for as many of the problems as I can, and regroup for my next PT later this week.

My goal is to hit that 165 mark in the next 5 PT's. I know I can do it.

nicole.hopkins · August 2015

See??!! Timing has gotten a LOT better! Accuracy will catch up with BR.

But also consider ... Are you drinking enough water (try your weight divided by two ... drink that many ounces a day). How's your diet? Had your vision checked lately? I'd examine those lifestyle things anyway; I find these things have a serious impact on my performance.

@lsatblitz said:
This is all understandable, and I'm not going too hard on myself since this is my 4th full test.

Good perspective

I can tell you're putting in a lot of hard work on your mindset. That's a lot of the effort involved in the LSAT. So, kudos for that.

@lsatblitz said:
My goal is to hit that 165 mark in the next 5 PT's. I know I can do it.

Ok! Good to have goals, but remember to celebrate all victories—even (Especially) the ones that don't quite total up to your goal score. Gotta build your confidence like a muscle.

You're doing great; putting in a lot of hard work. Patience grows in times of delayed gratification.

lsatblitz · August 2015

@nicole.hopkins said:
Are you drinking enough water (try your weight divided by two ... drink that many ounces a day). How's your diet?

I'm definitely good on the diet and exercise. Definitely not a slacker when it comes to the gym

Admittedly, I've had trouble with my sleep schedule this summer though. I'm still deciding on whether or not I want to quit caffeine for this. Today's PT was at 8am and with caffeine. I'm not sure how I'd perform on a morning test without it, but I will give it a shot at some point.

@nicole.hopkins said:
Had your vision checked lately?

Hm, I do wear reading glasses. I'll give my optometrist a call.

@nicole.hopkins said:
Good perspective I can tell you're putting in a lot of hard work on your mindset. That's a lot of the effort involved in the LSAT. So, kudos for that.

@nicole.hopkins said:
Ok! Good to have goals, but remember to celebrate all victories

Absolutely, thank you! I've been in a great mood all day.

lsatblitz · August 2015

Another update - Finally made it into the 170s on my BR! There's a nice ~13 point discrepancy between my BR and my actual score though.

It has come to the point where I'm going -0 on RC sections untimed, I was usually missing at least 1 question per passage, but my (untimed) ability has been nicely improved.

Here's where my worry comes in - I'm starting to notice that anxiety is likely playing a role in my LR ability. I'm almost always able to correct my mistakes through BR, but I've noticed that I'm almost always missing all of the last 6 or so questions in a LR section. I do finish every section with time remaining, usually around 3 minutes. I hardly get any of the first 10 questions wrong, which I am able to complete in 10 minutes.

In regards to question types, I've noticed that those convoluted sufficient assumption questions that can't really be laid out through lawgic give me the most trouble. Even if I get the question right, it seems like I'm spending the most time on them, or I'm stuck rereading them a few times.

Anyone with any advice on how to finish the last 6 or so questions with more accuracy?

Pacifico · August 2015

It sounds like even though you're getting through the first 10 questions quickly enough, you aren't making the best use of your time in the final 25 minutes. The difficulty in the last six questions is usually all over the place. They'll throw some easy ones in there that they think you'll never see, or they throw some easy ones in a wall of text that they think you'll skip in the interest of time. I would caution you not to make a mountain out of a mole hill here because you could start to get a mental block in which you expect to get the last six wrong and then you'll just keep fulfilling that prophecy.

What are you doing with that extra three minutes? If you can stretch it to five, then that's almost an extra minute for all the questions in the 20s. I'd also drill some SA if I were you, and also if you're getting these ones wrong timed but then getting them right on BR, what are you doing differently on BR? That's the kind of analysis you need to undertake to figure out how to address your problems. It's fine if you spend 2-3 minutes on each of these questions if you have built up some reserves by getting through the rest of the questions. There usually aren't more than a few SAs per section so shaving off time elsewhere will help you hone in on these.

Also, do not use some ridiculous strategy like starting at the end and working backwards. Just go in order, fly through the first 10, then don't spend more than 90 seconds on any question and if you feel a time suck happening, circle the question, pick an answer and move on. If you make this a habit you should have a good 5 minutes extra at the end and coming back with fresh eyes can make a huge difference.

c.janson35 · August 2015

I usually try to pace myself by shooting for the first 10 questions in 10 minutes and the first 15 in 15 minutes. This sets me up for a solid 20 minutes for the last 10 questions, which gives me more than enough time for the tough questions and to go back and review the ones I've skipped over.

lsatblitz · August 2015

@Pacifico said:
I would caution you not to make a mountain out of a mole hill here because you could start to get a mental block in which you expect to get the last six wrong and then you'll just keep fulfilling that prophecy.

Of course, I'm sure with more experience PTing, this will all be a thing of the past.

@Pacifico said:
What are you doing with that extra three minutes? If you can stretch it to five, then that's almost an extra minute for all the questions in the 20s.

It does range from 3-5, but usually closer to 2-3 minutes extra rather than 5. As above mentioned, I could probably get a better grasp on 15 questions in 15 minutes, I've done 13 in 13 before, but it usually varies from there.

@Pacifico said:
I'd also drill some SA if I were you, and also if you're getting these ones wrong timed but then getting them right on BR, what are you doing differently on BR?

I will drill them, thanks. I take anywhere from 5 minutes to 20 minutes on tougher questions during BR, I think the extra time + relaxation of not being under time constraints helps me think clearly during BR.

@Pacifico said:
Also, do not use some ridiculous strategy like starting at the end and working backwards. Just go in order, fly through the first 10, then don't spend more than 90 seconds on any question and if you feel a time suck happening, circle the question, pick an answer and move on. If you make this a habit you should have a good 5 minutes extra at the end and coming back with fresh eyes can make a huge difference.

I definitely won't work from the back, thanks for that tip. Thanks for your advice, I appreciate the lengthy write-up.

@c.janson35 said:
I usually try to pace myself by shooting for the first 10 questions in 10 minutes and the first 15 in 15 minutes. This sets me up for a solid 20 minutes for the last 10 questions, which gives me more than enough time for the tough questions and to go back and review the ones I've skipped over.

I am striving for that. I will keep pushing for timing, but accuracy is obviously a concern as well.

c.janson35 · August 2015

@lsatblitz cool. Yea, don't sacrifice accuracy for time. Gotta make sure you're getting those easier questions right.

lsatblitz · August 2015

Made a nice step in LR this week, and I actually made it into the 160's on a PT.

RC continues to eat away at my current tests though. Untimed, I'm able to go through the passage a few times and draw out the answers as if it were a really long LR question. During my PT's though, I'm getting killed. Bleh.

DumbHollywoodActor · August 2015

@lsatblitz Congrats on hitting the 160s!!

You should consider getting the early RCs (http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Reading-Comprehension-Type-Difficulty/dp/1453803300/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1440198977&sr=8-2&keywords=cambridge+lsat+reading) and drilling those in between PTs. Once you’ve learned how to read for reasoning structure (which you can get from LSAT Trainer), you really just have to brute force your way through a lot of RC of passages to see improvement.

lsatblitz · August 2015

@DumbHollywoodActor said:
@lsatblitz Congrats on hitting the 160s!!

You should consider getting the early RCs (http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Reading-Comprehension-Type-Difficulty/dp/1453803300/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1440198977&sr=8-2&keywords=cambridge+lsat+reading) and drilling those in between PTs. Once you’ve learned how to read for reasoning structure (which you can get from LSAT Trainer), you really just have to brute force your way through a lot of RC of passages to see improvement.

Thanks!

I already own the drilling packets. I didn't see much improvement when I was going through them. I feel more comfortable with RC now that I'm PTing more often, but I'm not accurate at all.

lsatblitz · August 2015

Spent the entire day drilling RC passages yesterday. I tried a timed section this morning and completely bombed it. Seems like I just worked up my confidence and then immediately flushed it down the toilet.

I don't think I'll take another full PT until I get RC down. I see myself consistently going -3 to -5 on LR sections, -0 to -3 on games, but absolutely bombing any timed RC section. I think my best timed RC section has been a -8.

I've listened to all of the advice there is out there. I read political theory every morning when I wake up and every night before I fall asleep. I've tried the memory method. I've read everything Mike Kim has to say about RC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm able to get perfect sections untimed. I understand what the questions are asking and which answers are wrong vs right. There's just something about going through the process in timed circumstances that doesn't click for me.

c.janson35 · August 2015

"Spent the entire day drilling RC passages yesterday. I tried a timed section this morning and completely bombed it."

It sounds like you were drilling untimed? If so, the drop in score shouldn't be too much of a surprise considering that you are clearly really good at RC untimed, as evidenced by your -0 BR work, whereas your problems come out under the clock. Just keep practicing! But practice timed. Always. Get used to the clock ticking away. It's the only way you'll be able to develop any sort of comfort with actually testing.

lsatblitz · August 2015

Update: Getting somewhere. Managed to pull off a 164 on PT 44 even though I completely bombed the science passage and ended with a -9 on RC. Crazy to think I would've been close to a 170 if I had done better on that section.

c.janson35 · September 2015

Awesome! Congrats on your progress! Keep goin!

Howdy, Stranger!

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