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Acceptable First PT Score?

Mike StoneMike Stone Member
in General 111 karma
Just got a 144, blind review 151 on my first ever PT (June 2007). I've only been studying for about 2 months, and I'm not very far into the course. Thus, I know my score will naturally improve by December or Feb when I take it for real.

However, that score is absolutely terrible, obviously, and I'm more than a little bit scared. Would love to hear from some other fellas and ladies; where did you guys start out when you just began studying? Is 144/151 a normal PT for my stage of the game? My goal is roughly 160 or higher for the schools that interest me. Fully aware that I'm not T14 material, but I also am not going to go to some scrub school just so I can say I have a law degree. I'm striving for slightly above average, which means improving approx 15-20 points. Is this realistic???

Sweating this....
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  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @"Mike Stone" said:
    I've only been studying for about 2 months, and I'm not very far into the course.
    Well, it sounds like you didn't take a true diagnostic. Diagnostics are meant to be taken cold, with zero prep or prior exposure to the LSAT. So the advice we give you is probably going to be based on our diagnostic scores—and thus it's going to be a bit of an apples and oranges comparison to the score you're citing above.

    It's taken me a year to improve 20+ points over my 152 diagnostic with anything resembling consistency. If you're looking for a 15-20 point increase by December, it depends on where you're at in your prep. Sure, it's possible. But I would not be discouraged if it does not happen in this short period of time.

    If I were you, I'd plan to take in February or June and apply next cycle. Of course, you could go ahead and do you very best in the months to come, take in December, and see if you hit your goal. But again, I think the emotional aspect/management of expectations is one of the hardest things about this test. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you end up discouraged, burnt out, and stop studying altogether.

    Is it possible? Hard work is required :) Yeah, it's possible (!) to improve 20-25 points over where you're scoring right now; the question is whether the time between now and December is sufficient for you. My instincts tell me "likely not," but you feel free to prove me wrong.
  • tanes256tanes256 Alum Member
    2573 karma
    Gotta change your attitude first off. You already sound defeated. Then you must put aside your ego. I'm sure a lot of us thought we would score higher on our diagnostic. I sure did. My crappy 141 humbled me quick fast and in a hurry. The LSAT is likely a new way of thinking for you so a low diagnostic means nothing. It just tells you that you didn't know as much as you thought you did. If you have the time to buckle down and study and you're hitting your target score in time for December, then go for it! If not, push it back. You'll gain nothing from rushing to take this test and scoring poorly. Brighten up!
  • NYC12345NYC12345 Alum Inactive Sage
    edited August 2015 1654 karma
    @"Mike Stone"
    What makes you think you're not T14 material. I scored a 147 on my diagnostic and I am consistently scoring in the low to mid 170s now. My first advice for you is to end the pity party. You will not improve substantially until you gain confidence and put forth 110% in your studies. Many before you have broke the glass ceiling, and there will be many after you. Trust me, your case is not unique. Many people start in the 140s and 150s. What you have to ask yourself is: how badly do I really want it? Am I willing to dedicate a large portion of my life for several months to do well on this exam? Your answer to these questions will determine your LSAT fate.
  • c.janson35c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    2398 karma
    It's definitely possible to raise your score that much in that time frame. Who knows, after going through the LG curriculum games might just click for you which could probably raise your score 8-10 points just off of that. How you progress through your studies is really personal and depends on how hard you're willing to work, as others have said above me.

    Here's my starting progression, way back when:

    Diagnostic- 7/17/14: 157
    8/16/14: 160
    8/23/14: 161
    8/28/14: 163
    9/1/14: 168
    9/4/14: 168
    9/6/14: 168
    9/8/14: 169
    9/10/14: 167
    9/12/14: 166 (PT to me: your diaper game is weak bro)
    9/13/14: 167 (dangerously close to confidence tailspin at this point; the high 160s plateau is real, and back to back drops from previous scores, now recognized as meaningless and random, really stung)
    9/15/14: 171 (woooo I made it, finally! But............)
    9/20/14: 167 :(

    So I improved 14 points in roughly 2 months, from min to max score. After my 2 month stretch of scores above, I recognized that I wasn't really all that close to where I wanted to be because I wasn't scoring consistently at where I wanted to be, and so I still needed more time. You may find the same. Either way, if you want to give yourself the chance at December and if you want to improve by 15-20 points, then you have to start now, and you have to put A LOT of time in to get there.

    Good luck!
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @c.janson35 said:
    Here's my starting progression, way back when:
    Corey, I love this. I am so happy you posted this. Gotta dig up my own.
  • goalis180goalis180 Alum Member
    531 karma
    Just work hard, no one can tell you a time frame because there are so many factors that determine that. Is it possible? Yes, many people on TLS who worked hard, and wanted it that bad achieved it, it is not uncommon, however what is uncommon is an individual who's willing to put in the work.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @goalis180 said:
    Yes, many people on TLS who worked hard, and wanted it that bad achieved it, it is not uncommon, however what is uncommon is an individual who's willing to put in the work.
    TLS = much bloviation and dishonesty, IMO. I believe we're a bit more transparent here.

    image
  • goalis180goalis180 Alum Member
    531 karma
    @nicole.hopkins wouldn't fully disagree, but they can't all be dishonest. I personally know people who started at 148 and scored 173-176, hence why I believe its doable.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @goalis180 said:
    people who started at 148 and scored 173-176, hence why I believe its doable.
    Yeah, that's doable; let's not get into that whole "and you can do it in 4 months because my friend Billy Bob sure did and boy oh boy if he can do it you can do it!" thing. It just might not be doable in ~4 months for everyone (or like ... many at all ...). Etc.
  • goalis180goalis180 Alum Member
    531 karma
    Ok
  • notwilliamwallacenotwilliamwallace Alum Member
    1049 karma
    @goalis180 said:
    however what is uncommon is an individual who's willing to put in the work.
    Beautifully put, @goalis180 !!
  • cliffinesscliffiness Alum Member
    86 karma
    did you really write it under the conditions of an exam both in terms of the technical and mental states? i certainly didnt...i personally think people put too much emphasis on diagnostic tests when theyre....well, for diagnosing. continue studying and try not to worry too much about the score until you have a full grasp (or as full as possible) of the fundamentals (ie going through a curriculum)
  • UsernameChangeUsernameChange Free Trial Member
    349 karma
    I tested with a diagnostic of 156 and around 1 month of what I consider pretty rigorous studying for myself (minimum 3-4 hours per day during weekdays and around 8 hours per day on weekend days) I'm scoring 164-165 range on my PTs with my BR score in high 170s. I'm aiming for 170 on the october test and feel it's totally possible.
    The best advice I have read on the LSAT so far is to be aggressive and attack the test. Don't "take the test" but rather view each question like an opponent that you must defeat to achieve your goal. Good luck!
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @harleywferguson said:
    The best advice I have read on the LSAT so far is to be aggressive and attack the test. Don't "take the test" but rather view each question like an opponent that you must defeat to achieve your goal.
    I like this mindset! You got this.
  • Mike StoneMike Stone Member
    edited September 2015 111 karma
    ... i love you all.

    Just did a little more work through the course, and got a 154/BR158.... seeing now how possible it is with time and effort. Thank you all for your insights, opinions, and motivational comments.

    Going to post a separate discussion too, but while I'm here, my next concern is app timing. I really dont know much about this process, yet. If I take a Feb test, is that too late to get an app together for a few schools in time for the Fall 2016 year start times?
  • jyang72jyang72 Alum Member
    844 karma
    @"Mike Stone", IMO, 151 BR is not good enough. Depend on where you want to go. If you are aiming mid or high 160s, you need 170BR. Take it easy dude.
  • Andrew KAndrew K Member
    edited September 2015 76 karma
    Re feeling discouraged about an LSAT score before you have sufficiently prepared. It is my belief that the LSAT is definitely not a measure of intelligence, nor is it a foolproof method of measuring potential ability as a lawyer. It is a measure of how much time you have spent preparing and learning the unique skills necessary to do well on the test. For the few who have high diagnostics (although I would guess most people who claim to have a high first diagnostic inflate their score or did not take it in real timed circumstances), they are not necessarily smarter than average, they were just fortunate enough in their schooling to have learned some of the skills for the test.

    So no reason to feel discouraged or somehow less intelligent because of a diagnostic score just keep working until you get score you want.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    edited September 2015 7965 karma
    @"Andrew K" said:
    It is a measure of how much time you have spent preparing and learning the unique skills necessary to do well on the test.
    Agree with your analysis!!! It's a skills test. Some people are good at dribbling basketballs early on. Others not so good (me). Can the latter get better by practicing this skill?

    image
  • Mike StoneMike Stone Member
    111 karma
    @jyang72 it was just a diagnostic, buddy. Plenty more learning before my not-good-enough 151BR holds any water. (2 weeks later my BR was 158... and I have a few months to go.)
  • Mike StoneMike Stone Member
    111 karma
    @"Andrew K" that makes sense, thank you dude!!
  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    7468 karma
    @"Mike Stone" said:
    Plenty more learning before my not-good-enough 151BR holds any water.
    I think what @jyang72 is saying is that you might want to hold off on any more PTs because your BR score (even the 158) is very low. A 158 Blind review score means that with unlimited time, you still got 30 questions wrong. That translates into a serious lack of fundamental skills required to doing well on the LSAT. You probably need to go back to the curriculum to work through your deficiencies. What is the breakdown of your BR scores, LG, LR and RC?
  • PacificoPacifico Alum Inactive ⭐
    8021 karma
    I bet it wasn't a clean copy BR since it was so close to the timed score. I would take another PT and do a clean copy BR and see what happens from there.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    edited September 2015 7965 karma
    @Pacifico said:
    clean copy BR
    You gotta TM that man! And then make a thread dedicated to the concept and post links to it whenever it comes up ...

    image

    Oh, and, good point.
  • jyang72jyang72 Alum Member
    844 karma
    @DumbHollywoodActor, exactly. I was even panic when my BR is160. For anyone whose goal is above mid 160,170 BR is necessary. Fundamental necessary condition to win the battle.BTW, who can score 170 without 170 BR anyway?
  • PacificoPacifico Alum Inactive ⭐
    8021 karma
    A monkey could on a long enough timeline and without ever doing BR.
  • c.janson35c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    2398 karma
    It's also important to remember that a 170s score is the goal, and that you're just starting out on PTs right now. I don't think it's an issue that your BR score was a 158. PTs aren't just a tool to validate your progress with a tangible score, but they're learning experiences in and of themselves. That said, don't worry about the 158 BR and definitely don't internalize it as a sign of failure. Keep PTing and keep learning. Once you have a solid base of analytics, take a look to see if there are any areas that call for revisiting the lessons and/or drilling. But it's not necessary to have a 170s BR score before you begin PTing because there's so many tests available. I wouldn't be using the 60s and 70s just yet, but anything else can be used to help you grow! At some point you have to take the plunge and begin PTing after putting in all the work with the curriculum, which is exactly what you've done.

    I would also heed Pacifico's advice about doing a clean copy BR if it's possible, and would also add one more tip about the BR process: don't rush it. I know it's tempting to grade your test and look specifically at the questions you got wrong, but take the BR as a way to perfect your skills. This requires time. The more you follow this approach, the higher your BR scores will start to creep up there.
  • newyorktimesnewyorktimes Alum Member
    edited September 2015 58 karma
    + everyone above's advice, I started in 140s in Nov 2014 with a full time job 60+ hours/week, i'm now in the mid 160 and consistent 170+ BR range having been out of school for 3+ years. You can do it don't give up! From what i've heard many people break the mid 160 pleateau in their final month / 2 weeks before the exam. I found that my score starting improving the most after doing 2+ PTs a week and 35min sections where I was weak whenever I could. BR is also key. Good luck all
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