YLS on Retakes and Cancels?

Anna Marie · September 2016

I've seen a number of references on 7sage forums indicating that Yale cares quite a bit about retakes and cancels on the LSAT. I'm just curious as to what extent this is this case -- it seems to be a frequent opinion that retaking or cancelling basically means you can say goodbye to a shot at New Haven. Obviously there is the general consensus that Yale can do whatever it likes as far as admissions goes because it's, well, Yale. But beyond this admissions platitude, what reason is there to believe that Yale's aversion toward retakes is, in fact, the case? (Not challenging that it is, just hoping for some more information as to why this seems to be common knowledge).

Alex · September 2016

@MoralVacuum said:
But beyond this admissions platitude, what reason is there to believe that Yale's aversion toward retakes is, in fact, the case? (Not challenging that it is, just hoping for some more information as to why this seems to be common knowledge).

Yeah, Yale's exact feelings on retakes seems to be quite nebulous.

Their website reads "How do you weigh LSAT scores?

"We do not use a formula or index to weigh various factors (like LSAT scores). We consider all of the information about an applicant, including multiple LSAT scores. We do not average scores, nor do we look at only your high score."

https://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admissions/frequently-asked-questions

This vague wording makes it hard to quantify exactly to what extent retakes matter. They don't only care about the highest score, but they also don't average them.... I myself am left to wonder exactly what that means (Is there more to read between the lines?) Perhaps an adcomm can better answer that then anyone on here...

I don't know of any hard evidence that shows retakes hurt your chances. I have one anecdotal example of a Ivy Grad, URM male, 4.0 GPA, took LSAT 2x. Ended up with a 170. Was not accepted. Of course, this could be the result of many other things so no one can say for sure whether the retake had anything to do with it.

However, retakes do not mean you'll have to say goodbye to New Haven next fall. I know off a couple of examples of people who retook and were accepted into Yale Law School. Some have been reported on Mylsn.info and on threads on TLS that explain how helpful retakes can be. So it doesn't kill your chances automatically.

@MoralVacuum said:
Obviously there is the general consensus that Yale can do whatever it likes as far as admissions goes because it's, well, Yale.

Your question arouses my own curiosity and makes me want to find more/stronger evidence whether or not retakes hurt your chances at Yale. I'll search around and see if I can find anything more specific, but I fear that Yale's admissions--which is known as a black box--might just be continuing to do whatever it likes without a simply formulaic approach. I am planning on only applying to HYS so often worry if a retake will hurt as well.

Nanchito-1-1 · September 2016

https://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admissions/frequently-asked-questions

Says they consider everything, but it is quite a mystery what holds more weight. Maybe it varies from person to person, maybe it's best to not take any chances. I'd contact admissions for further details.

https://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admissions/contact-admissions

Cant Get Right · September 2016

Here's some excerpts from a Q & A with Mike Spivey concerning Yale:

Question: Mike, want to offer a thought as to how much what you are saying about numbers is different for Yale/Stanford, since it seems as though admissions are not as straightforward at those two schools?

Mike: Well, again, I do not speak for any one school in general. At the very, very top (think three schools), much of the data shows that they are more inelastic to the market and therefore still can play by their own rules. In other words, they are still greatly favored in the supply/demand equation. I can say categorically that the sales pitch from Yale has been vastly different than all others schools in the past. I once saw an advertisement for Wharton B-School on a train that said something along the lines of "Wharton is the best business school in the world, too bad you can't get in" and Yale has had a similar marketing pitch in the past. Still, the general principles are still the same. YHS want applicants above both their medians, they will admit splitters, they will take people off the wait list (much, much fewer at Yale than any other school—all of whom are waiting on Yale to make their admit decisions) and they will lose applicants to other law schools. So a good deal of the advice I am giving in general may very well apply to an applicant to these schools.

So my interpretation of this has been that basically everything that matters anywhere matters more at YHS, and within that group, Y even more. A lot of times I use the line "except at Yale, maybe" more to suggest that a lot of things people worry about really aren't such a big deal for the most part. No application is perfect, or at least very few are, and that's okay. Except at Yale, maybe, lol.

More directly to your specific question:

Question: Kind of specific, but... any experience with 3+ LSAT scores hurting someone, even if the eventual score is "there"? Excluding the obvious YSH.

Mike: Yes, but only back when scores were averaged by USNWR, and that is long gone. Maybe Yale can still afford to care, but everything I know to the nth degree says 3 scores actually equals 1 high score. Everywhere. If the jump is 10 points or more you need to explain... and LSAC may come calling.

There just always seems to be this "maybe Yale" tagged onto things like this. I think bottom line for Yale is put together your best application and see what happens. Having strong numbers is never a guarantee of acceptance, (nor is weak numbers a guarantee of rejection) but Yale is so exclusive that they really do get to look at the applications more comprehensively, so the soft factors carry additional weight there. I think that's all it is for the most part.

alex.e92 · September 2016

Basically what @"Cant Get Right" said. This is pure speculation, but I think that Yale admin is such a black box because everyone is admitted to YLS at the margin. They probably just need to find more variables to distinguish similarly excellent candidates by. How do you distinguish between multiple candidates who all have a 4.0 in a difficult major, great LORs, stellar PSs, and all scored 177s? One way to do so would be looking at retakes and cancels. Maybe one candidate scored a 161 initially? Perhaps Yale doesn't always look at retakes and cancels, but it's more likely that parts of your application never discussed at other top schools would be on the table as a tie breaker at YLS.

ay_fegetaboutit · September 2016

Yale's current dean of admissions said they look down on retakes. Pretty sure that's where the tls platitude come from

Alex · September 2016

@ay_fegetaboutit Do you have the link to where she said that? I have been searching for 20 minutes trying to find where/if she said that. I checked her blog, a few interviews, and TLS...

TYIA

Alex · September 2016

@HasaDigaLSAT said:
They probably just need to find more variables to distinguish similarly excellent candidates by. How do you distinguish between multiple candidates who all have a 4.0 in a difficult major, great LORs, stellar PSs, and all scored 177s

This actually makes a lot of sense. It is sort of the same reason HYS doesn't give merit aid; how the hell would you decide who gets it when everyone is so stellar?

Anna Marie · September 2016

TLS gives me way too much anxiety so I try to stay away, but let us know if you find anything @"Alex Divine"! I've briefly looked at Asha's blog to see if she specifically says anything about it but have yet not seen anything other than the "we look at everything" response. Although I do agree with what is said above about differentiating candidates etc. I just wasn't sure if this was speculation or related to something specific that was said to make it definitive.

Alex · September 2016

@MoralVacuum said:
TLS gives me way too much anxiety so I try to stay away, but let us know if you find anything @"Alex Divine"! I've briefly looked at Asha's blog to see if she specifically says anything about it but have yet not seen anything other than the "we look at everything" response. Although I do agree with what is said above about differentiating candidates etc. I just wasn't sure if this was speculation or related to something specific that was said to make it definitive.

Haha! Yeah TLS has taught me to have thick skin. I consider it training for being a lawyer, lol. I don't think it is pure speculation, no. I personally think (and this is my opinion) that no retake is ever going to look good all things being equal, against a candidate that only took it once. That said, I think retakes matter much less than the weight we are assigning them in this thread.

I looked and looked yesterday and cannot find anything specifically on Asha or YLS saying publicly that retakes specifically hurt you. I'll defer judgement until we see if @ay_ infiltrated can find that link. (Part of me does remember seeing something about it, but the TLS orthodoxy has infiltrated my mind so deep, at this point I might retake a 179, lol)

ETA:

After reading some more on it, and what admissions consultants had to say about it, I stand by what I already said, that it isn't helpful to have retakes. Like you and others have said, the kid who got a 175 on try one is probably going to be looked at more favorably than the kid who scored it on try 2. When every candidate has a 3.9+ and 173+ with hella extracurriculars, great PS/LOR; how else can one differentiate who to admit? I think the same is true for a lot of top schools....

ay_fegetaboutit · September 2016

Do you have the link to where she said that? I have been searching for 20 minutes trying to find where/if she said that. I checked her blog, a few interviews, and TLS...

I couldn't find the source. I'm almost positive I read/watched Asha say this and it isn't just tls heresay. I'll keep looking.

Jason Kander · December 2017

@ay_fegetaboutit said:
Do you have the link to where she said that? I have been searching for 20 minutes trying to find where/if she said that. I checked her blog, a few interviews, and TLS...

I couldn't find the source. I'm almost positive I read/watched Asha say this and it isn't just tls heresay. I'll keep looking.

Any update on this?

Jason Kander · December 2017

@"Alex Divine" said:
@MoralVacuum said:
TLS gives me way too much anxiety so I try to stay away, but let us know if you find anything @"Alex Divine"! I've briefly looked at Asha's blog to see if she specifically says anything about it but have yet not seen anything other than the "we look at everything" response. Although I do agree with what is said above about differentiating candidates etc. I just wasn't sure if this was speculation or related to something specific that was said to make it definitive.

Haha! Yeah TLS has taught me to have thick skin. I consider it training for being a lawyer, lol. I don't think it is pure speculation, no. I personally think (and this is my opinion) that no retake is ever going to look good all things being equal, against a candidate that only took it once. That said, I think retakes matter much less than the weight we are assigning them in this thread.

I looked and looked yesterday and cannot find anything specifically on Asha or YLS saying publicly that retakes specifically hurt you. I'll defer judgement until we see if @ay_ infiltrated can find that link. (Part of me does remember seeing something about it, but the TLS orthodoxy has infiltrated my mind so deep, at this point I might retake a 179, lol)

ETA:

After reading some more on it, and what admissions consultants had to say about it, I stand by what I already said, that it isn't helpful to have retakes. Like you and others have said, the kid who got a 175 on try one is probably going to be looked at more favorably than the kid who scored it on try 2. When every candidate has a 3.9+ and 173+ with hella extracurriculars, great PS/LOR; how else can one differentiate who to admit? I think the same is true for a lot of top schools....

Hey Alex, any update on this?

Alex · December 2017

@"Jason Kander" said:

@"Alex Divine" said:
@MoralVacuum said:
TLS gives me way too much anxiety so I try to stay away, but let us know if you find anything @"Alex Divine"! I've briefly looked at Asha's blog to see if she specifically says anything about it but have yet not seen anything other than the "we look at everything" response. Although I do agree with what is said above about differentiating candidates etc. I just wasn't sure if this was speculation or related to something specific that was said to make it definitive.

Haha! Yeah TLS has taught me to have thick skin. I consider it training for being a lawyer, lol. I don't think it is pure speculation, no. I personally think (and this is my opinion) that no retake is ever going to look good all things being equal, against a candidate that only took it once. That said, I think retakes matter much less than the weight we are assigning them in this thread.

I looked and looked yesterday and cannot find anything specifically on Asha or YLS saying publicly that retakes specifically hurt you. I'll defer judgement until we see if @ay_ infiltrated can find that link. (Part of me does remember seeing something about it, but the TLS orthodoxy has infiltrated my mind so deep, at this point I might retake a 179, lol)

ETA:

After reading some more on it, and what admissions consultants had to say about it, I stand by what I already said, that it isn't helpful to have retakes. Like you and others have said, the kid who got a 175 on try one is probably going to be looked at more favorably than the kid who scored it on try 2. When every candidate has a 3.9+ and 173+ with hella extracurriculars, great PS/LOR; how else can one differentiate who to admit? I think the same is true for a lot of top schools....

Hey Alex, any update on this?

Hey Jason,

This thread is from last year, so I don't exactly remember what the specific discussion was regarding. What are you looking for an update on specifically?

Jason Kander · December 2017

@"Alex Divine" said:

@"Jason Kander" said:

@"Alex Divine" said:
@MoralVacuum said:
TLS gives me way too much anxiety so I try to stay away, but let us know if you find anything @"Alex Divine"! I've briefly looked at Asha's blog to see if she specifically says anything about it but have yet not seen anything other than the "we look at everything" response. Although I do agree with what is said above about differentiating candidates etc. I just wasn't sure if this was speculation or related to something specific that was said to make it definitive.

Haha! Yeah TLS has taught me to have thick skin. I consider it training for being a lawyer, lol. I don't think it is pure speculation, no. I personally think (and this is my opinion) that no retake is ever going to look good all things being equal, against a candidate that only took it once. That said, I think retakes matter much less than the weight we are assigning them in this thread.

I looked and looked yesterday and cannot find anything specifically on Asha or YLS saying publicly that retakes specifically hurt you. I'll defer judgement until we see if @ay_ infiltrated can find that link. (Part of me does remember seeing something about it, but the TLS orthodoxy has infiltrated my mind so deep, at this point I might retake a 179, lol)

ETA:

After reading some more on it, and what admissions consultants had to say about it, I stand by what I already said, that it isn't helpful to have retakes. Like you and others have said, the kid who got a 175 on try one is probably going to be looked at more favorably than the kid who scored it on try 2. When every candidate has a 3.9+ and 173+ with hella extracurriculars, great PS/LOR; how else can one differentiate who to admit? I think the same is true for a lot of top schools....

Hey Alex, any update on this?

Hey Jason,

This thread is from last year, so I don't exactly remember what the specific discussion was regarding. What are you looking for an update on specifically?

Hey Alex,

I was wondering if anyone found a source that says Yale averages your LSAT scores.

Jason Kander · December 2017

or at least looks at both instead of just the highest.

Seeking Perfection · December 2017

@"Jason Kander"

As I understand it, they don't average your score. Many schools claim to evaluate scores holistically. But most don't because they face ratings pressure.

Because Yale as the dominant best law school in the country faces very little ratings pressure from Harvard and Stanford. It can basically do what it wants. Other schools have to maximize their US News rank which is based on students best LSAT scores.

What Yale probably wants is to get the best students. Someone who retook until they got lucky and scored well isn't the best student. Someone who has a legitimate reason for doing worse the first time or even just studied more the second time is likely fine. Yale also does other quirky things like basing decisions significantly on work experience to get the best students even though they may not maximize points toward their US News ranking. It's a lot harder to separate out these effects at Yale than moat schools.

Even at Harvard, you can look and see that above a certain LSAT and GPA almost everyone gets in. This is true even if they have multiple LSAT attempts which is why we know that their claim to look at all the scores is essentially meaningless.

Source: Law school numbers data and the collective wisdom of the internet.

Alex · December 2017

@"Jason Kander" said:

@"Alex Divine" said:

@"Jason Kander" said:

@"Alex Divine" said:
@MoralVacuum said:
TLS gives me way too much anxiety so I try to stay away, but let us know if you find anything @"Alex Divine"! I've briefly looked at Asha's blog to see if she specifically says anything about it but have yet not seen anything other than the "we look at everything" response. Although I do agree with what is said above about differentiating candidates etc. I just wasn't sure if this was speculation or related to something specific that was said to make it definitive.

Haha! Yeah TLS has taught me to have thick skin. I consider it training for being a lawyer, lol. I don't think it is pure speculation, no. I personally think (and this is my opinion) that no retake is ever going to look good all things being equal, against a candidate that only took it once. That said, I think retakes matter much less than the weight we are assigning them in this thread.

I looked and looked yesterday and cannot find anything specifically on Asha or YLS saying publicly that retakes specifically hurt you. I'll defer judgement until we see if @ay_ infiltrated can find that link. (Part of me does remember seeing something about it, but the TLS orthodoxy has infiltrated my mind so deep, at this point I might retake a 179, lol)

ETA:

After reading some more on it, and what admissions consultants had to say about it, I stand by what I already said, that it isn't helpful to have retakes. Like you and others have said, the kid who got a 175 on try one is probably going to be looked at more favorably than the kid who scored it on try 2. When every candidate has a 3.9+ and 173+ with hella extracurriculars, great PS/LOR; how else can one differentiate who to admit? I think the same is true for a lot of top schools....

Hey Alex, any update on this?

Hey Jason,

This thread is from last year, so I don't exactly remember what the specific discussion was regarding. What are you looking for an update on specifically?

Hey Alex,

I was wondering if anyone found a source that says Yale averages your LSAT scores.

If I remember correctly, their website and/or Dean Asha's blog mentions that they consider all LSAT scores. They don't average them though.

mollskl8 · December 2017

I think it really does depend on your application and whether you have an “it factor” and not necessarily about retakes. I know I guy who was admitted to yls who got a 160 the first time and a 169 the second time. Non-urm but conservative at a very liberal school. Another guy (urm)who got a 169 the first time and then a 170 the second time. And now that I’m thinking about it another girl who was admitted who got in the high 160’s the first time and got a 173 the second time. In all cases, it all goes back to how well you paint what you want to do with your law degree in your application.

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