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The cost associated with LSAT prep & law school is classist and discouraging
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Everyone at LSAC
Yes, it's very unfortunate, but law school and law prep is not much different than other areas of life: The rich have more opportunities and an easier time at a whole bunch of things.
Thanks for such insight, wow
I meant it seriously, but if you want to answer with snide remarks and the like, 7Sage is not the place for you. Try TLS.
c'est la vie, my friend
I can truly empathize with you @mcneeleyt as I was raised by my single grandmother who passed away my junior year of high school. I was fortunate enough to be taken in by a family friend. Needless to say I was very poor for those years... I realized quickly that the way to money wasn't in liberal arts degrees so I worked hard, studied finance, and was able to get a decent job out of college. No luck or easy break for me... Just went out and got it. Started off changing ink and paper at where I would eventually work. If it's money you think makes life easier, I can assure you it doesn't. Those people you think are rich are only rich in money. They have just as many problems, albeit different problems, problems they are...
I agree with everything you've written, but be careful against developing a mindset of victimhood and learned helplessness. Don't become a victim or feel bad for yourself. And certainly don't waste any amount of time worry about what other people have that you don't. If you want something in life and you're smart and hardworking, conscientious and patient, you can get it.
I think @Freddy_D and @uhinberg hit the nail on the head. It's part of life, it kinda sucks, the rich are probably going to have some advantages... So what? Wealth doesn't buy hard work, IQ points, or your ability to achieve your dreams.
Don't feel bad about what is out of your control. Focus on doing you and you only! Who cares what pencils people use, what resources they have .... Just worry about you. I promise you will be much happier.
7Sage's entire philosophy is built around providing an affordable way to prep for the LSAT. So I'm happy you found us
Good luck!
This is a huge issue at every level of education, and you're right, it absolutely isn't fair. That being said, 7sage is a much better value than most other options. I've spent less than $200 on prep and have seen my score go up significantly. If you buy some used prep books and use the free logic games videos, you'll give yourself a solid foundation and can eliminate costs. I used to be an SAT tutor, and at the end of the day the students who do the best are the ones who put the most time and effort into studying for the test. So ignore the noise about which pencil is best and which watch to use (unless you're into that, which is also fine, but definitely not necessary) and focus on controlling what you can control. And then when we're all lawyers we can work to tear down these and other systematic inequalities!
hey hey hey. TLS is a lovely place tyvm
@"Alex Divine" totally love your comment. I came from a really poor background also, but the mindset you are putting out is essential if one ever wants to dig out of the constraints of their class. It doesn't mean being ignorant of larger structural issues, as I can totally relate to OP. But it does mean finding ways to move forward despite it and resisting the urge to feel overly victimized, imo.
OP, I totally understand where you're coming from and you are right.
I just want to have a side note in case you weren't aware, LSAC has an LSAC waiver which gives you 2 free LSAT takes and automatic fee waivers for certain schools, as well as superprep 2. If you weren't aware of it, you should try applying to see if they give you one!
Lol the last time I went there I was asking for advice on LSAT score and T-15 schools. Instead of giving advice the entire thread told me that "T-15 doesn't exist" and that it's "T-14" or bust. No one bothered to answer my question. They just spent the entire time telling me that T-15 is wrong and T-14 is right.
I will never go back.
haha
but it also depends on what you make of it. if someone makes an effort to get help from others, it's definitely there. I've gotten countless help from people in the LSAT sub-forum, including a study group 2 with of them. I think on the face of that sub-forum, it does just seem like a bunch of people just saying what they get on PT's, but if you want the help and seek it out, it's there.
there are some A holes on there, but don't let that be a indication of the majority of them. trust me, there's a lot of great people on there, just like there is on here.
Plus it's where we met all that time ago
@TheMikey I think the difference is, to put this into LSAT terms, that there are SOME A-holes on 7Sage, but MOST are A-Holes on TLS.
(I don't actually believe this, I just felt like turning this into LSAT talk)
Suck it up.
Don't bother commenting on my post when you have nothing substantial to add other then, "Aw, that's life" Thanks!
@mcneeleyt wo wo wo, no need to get offensive.
The 7sage community is an ideal community. TLS is the "gut punch and stick gum in your hair" reality.
Let's all be nice and get along. @uhinberg was trying to commiserate by agreeing with you. They weren't trying to be dismissive! We're just a very kind and loving community here so that's why TLS was mentioned as a place for any snide or mean remarks.
I mean, thanks for your reply. It is a bit naive to believe money doesn't make your life easier because that is simply not true in any sense. Wealthy people don't worry about the same problems or issues, and never are forced to, as those living under the poverty line.
"Victimhood" "Learned helplessness" are a bit offensive as well. It's apart of my identity, doesn't mean I'm ashamed.
https://media.giphy.com/media/V6otOwOyaCCMo/giphy.gif
You guy's are my community.
@Freddy_D
Idk.. I think the reason a lot of people think people on TLS are A holes is because they are more harsh but realistic when it comes to giving advice, but most of it is in good faith, it just comes off as snobby and elitist.
I agree there are dicks on there, but most of the regulars who post truly aren't.
idk, just my view on it.
I'll be Troy (I'm totally a Troy)
Annie is such a damn babe
I'd have to call Abed. I have the same obsessive compulsive types of behavior....lol
Well, it's not a belief ... I used to be poor and now I have a very good job where money is no longer an issue. My life is not any easier than it was. I don't worry about paying my bills on time or having to worry about my next meal, but the money doesn't come for free, you know? The work is incredibly long and stressful. I've lost the love of my life. I've lost friends. I've probably taken 5-10 years off of my life. Developed an anxiety disorder..... I've made incredible sacrifices to get to any level of success. Point being that pain and suffering are pain and suffering no matter where you go in life. The sun won't bleach it, the tide won't wash it away, and no amount of money can solve ALL your problems.
Also, I'm sorry if I offended you. I wasn't saying you are those things. I'm just saying be wary of developing a mindset that infects you with those things. "I agree with everything you've written, but be careful against developing a mindset of victimhood and learned helplessness."
I was honestly just trying to help and I hope you consider what I've written and focus on doing you.
Annie is P E R F E C T. I love her with all of my heart.
@LSATcantwin if you're Abed, then we have to get our show going:
Troy and Abed in the Morning!
Your story is interesting to me and I really appreciate you commenting. I'm sorry I sounded confrontational or just simply rude at first. I just forget the majority of people (even on here) will not relate to what I'm trying to explain. Stress, pain, and suffering are always there, and I suppose how you experience or react to such doesn't change much with how much money you have.
If it's not too personal of a question, did you mention any of the hardships in your life during your application process, or personal statement? It's something I'm conflicted about because of how you mentioned "victimhood" like, I don't want to sound like a pity party, just self-aware of the circumstances that have lead my life to here and how they differ me from others.
@"Alex Divine" Amen.
Hey, man I feel your pain on the LSAT prep and law school expenses. I'm not from a wealthy family and don't want big law so I'm trying to keep costs as low as I can.
My advice for cheap LSAT prep would be to aquire the actual tests either used or through an act of internet piracy/civic disobedience against the LSAC monopoly depending on your perspective. Other than taking and blind reviewing those that the only prep I have found useful is the 7 sage core curriculum about $170 and especially the free logic games video explanations. I also got the Powerscore logic games bible, but would cut that in hindsight.
And I have a 172 that I am retaking hoping to push it a little higher for the potential scholarships. So its not like you need a ton of money to do well.
On the test where I got the 172 I switched to the pencil the LSAT sight provided because I liked it better than the box of Ticonderoga's I'd splerged on since I knew that their erasers worked. That stuff watches, pencils, ect. doesn't really matter. It's an outlet for the frustration and anxiety people feel when taking a test which determines their future; it's an attempt to have some additional measure of control over the test.
So those rich people spending thousands of dollars on an in person prep course are getting ripped off. It's not that the advice those tutors or teachers are giving isn't valuable. It's that you can get the same advice at a fraction of the cost online for free or from JY and that all the advice in the world does not make up for aptitude or hours and hours of practice.
It's harder for the poor to get those hours of practice in with a full time or longer job, but it is also hard for those who are rich and privileged and not used to long, grinding, and often boring work.
Don't use an admission consultant if you are worried about money. I'm not going to. They have a little more experience with the system, but you know what good writing is or know people who can be coerced to tell you what's good about your writing. And you have the internet for examples. TLS might be condescending and smug, but it's not useless for examples of workable law school resumes and essays. Law school admissions are shockingly predictable based on numbers so admission consultants have less to offer than for other graduate programs or undergrad. If you did not use an admissions consultant for undergrad why would you start now?
The price of Law School is ridiculous, but the scholarship game and the LSAT are your saving grace.
Good luck.
No problem! I totally get it
Overcoming hardship is a common PS topic and can be a very effective PS if written correctly.
I definitely wrote about my past hardships and path to where I am now and why those hardships led me to want to practice law.
Like you said, just don't make it a pity party because I'm sure the admissions people read enough of those. I think the most important part is to have a larger narrative that explains who you are as a person and ties in other important ideas and themes. This way you won't run the risk of sounding too much like a pity party. For example, how those hardships informed your decision to pursue law.
If you'd like, whenever you finish yours, feel free to send it to me. I'd be happy to help you make any edits or help in anyway I can.
OMG. I love Annie... It hurts that she'll never be mine. See, no amount of money can get me Allison Brie.
Abed's the real babe. ;-)
@mcneeleyt sorry we hijacked your post with Community references. :-P I feel your pain. I don't know statistics, but I can guess that there are a lot of people on 7Sage who joined because of its cost effectiveness. JY started off as an LSAT tutor specifically for people who couldn't afford expensive classes so it's safe to say it's in his blood to try and even the playing field for those of us who weren't born with a silver spoon.
That being said, like @"Alex Divine" said, try not to let this turn you into a bitter person. As much as it sucks, like @uhinberg said that's how it is for now, and it's up to us future lawyers to hopefully change it. You have to play the hand you're dealt and being rich doesn't guarantee you an easy road to law school anyway. There are rich people with certain disabilities, or who are underrepresented minorities who have many other obstacles to deal with. Very few people have an easy road into T14 we all have to work our butts off.
I agree with what seekingperfection said above. Those rich people are being ripped off with those courses. Their loss. Stick with 7sage. You can get all the advice you need to succeed from this free forum. Tons of people will give you free advice. You incorporate that advice and you can get closer to succeeding on the LSAT. Get the tests. Get your LG score to -0 and that takes you a long way.
As for the admissions editors, like seekingperfection said above, they're not a necessary condition for success so don't be duped into thinking they are. Leverage their resources. I've been attending their admissions webinars which are extremely helpful and insightful! You apply everything they're doing to your own stuff. Those are free and ongoing as far as I can tell. Also the admissions course is pretty cool too. It's actually very useful and legit. It's much harder to google your way to a decent looking resume or get other tips on writing. There's so much out there and it's hard to distinguish the good advice from the bad. So stick to 7sage. Ignore the noise. 15 bucks for the admissions course. In lieu of not paying 3k for the consulting package, I'd say it's worth it. Plus, David Busis is really nice and seems to be responsive. Also, I think JY used to do PreProBono for people with limited resources. He might still be doing it so it might be worthwhile to check that out.
I haven't read a lot of the comments but the reality is the people need to make a living as well.
The admissions package has a small tier avail which is reasonable and if you put in the effort up front you can use it effectively. If you use the 2999 package imagine the amount of work someone will put in? What if the work ends up to 40 hours of work. Don't they deserve to earn $80-120 per hour? They are HIGHLY skilled. At 40 hours that $4,800.
Well ok fine, let's say they spent 20 hours that's still 2400! That's not even that much more than the course! A few hours can easily be spent going over ONE draft. Not to mention unlimited.
I think overall you are right, LSAT and law is unfair - it is based on dropped $200 just to take an exam. It's pretty crazy, and life crushing debt for the actual education but that is the world we live in. The alternative is where law education is subsidized and only the best students get to go, but think about it - those with the most money will get the full rides anyway, they get tutors, a ton of prep etc...
I think 7sage has changed the market already, it is affordable from different tiers and a lot of supplemental advice -- BR sessions, and more. It's about what you do with it. And you know you can deff do it on the cheap side (might be a longer process) but you can buy books on amazon ($50 for 10 exams), make copies and study like crazy. There are tons of more affordable resources we constantly talk about (lsathacks), etc...
There are also non-profits that select students to work with. It's quite amazing what you can accomplish if you work hard and figure it out. It's much easier to complain and say how terrible life is, its a LOT harder to push forward. Yes there are tons of examples where it really is impossible and that is a TERRIBLE situation, please don't take this as a "pick yourself up by the bootstrap" response. There are a LOT of free resources, there is your public library that might have LSAT resources, there is eBay, there are TONS of ways to figure it out. No one is requiring you to pay 3K for anything.
If you need some help with resources or actual question on something specific everyone here will try to help so please reach out feel free to PM.
Best of luck on your journey mate. For the record, I can't afford those courses and I have a decent full time job. It is insanely priced and honestly they are crap - they rush through something that they think will get an average +5 boost so they can sell more courses. I paid 1K for testmasters and they cut off your access after 3 months and you are left with materials that are useless. their PTs are not normal so you have to use their system to grade and so the whole thing is worthless.
To be clear, I was not at all suggesting that they should not charge as much as they do. Of course not. They're professional writers. Honestly, they don't have to provide free webinars but they do and they are awesome. I was simply acknowledging the very real fact that some people, a lot of people, cannot justify spending that much for a consulting package. That is also a reality. I do think hiring admissions consultants aren't necessary conditions for success. That's not saying much - to not be a necessary condition. Haha. Obviously all of our applications would be much better if they were professionally edited. I mean they are professional writers, poets, future professors, and editors. Yeah... they got it going on. However, that still leaves the questions of what do people do who can't afford it? I was simply trying to give OP some unsolicited advice.
Yeah, @"Seeking Perfection" is spot on. There is no need to spend 3k on any part of your prep. I'm not advocating it...(am i legally covered by writing that?) but all of the prep tests are available at one price point or another ($0) online. Most prep books can be torrented, I'd imagine. You can often get good deals and even get the books for free if you check out reddit/resale websites. I'll be giving my books away on here after I finish with them.
A good friend of mine locked himself in a room with a hand-me-down powerscore book for three months and came out with a 170. He spent nothing on prep and recently finished his studies at Yale. You can make it work.
A lot of the face to face classes are a racket. The average bump in score following those courses is like 5 points or something. So, don't think you're missing out on too much by being priced out. And honestly, when I worked in private education for a while, we would sell high priced, customized services all the time to wealthier clients, when the basic, affordable service nearly invariably produced better results. That being said, having someone with the 7sage admissions team provide you personalized help would be helpful, but most undergrad institutions have a writing center. So.
I've spent money on the 7Sage CC. I've found it to be worth the money, even though I was tight on funds when I first purchased it. The Trainer was worth it as well. Things like the admissions course are unnecessary. Helpful, I'm sure, but there are other resources out there. There are free and extensive articles on the application process available online (TLS...). I believe the admissions course is expensive if you purchase multiple edit sessions. The basics of admissions is available in one of the posted 7Sage webinar videos. That video answered all the major questions that I would hope to have answered by purchasing the admissions course.
It's undeniable that there are structural impediments that make law school, and most things, simpler for the wealthy (although, for the purposes of LSAT Prep, the financially stable seems to be a better cut off line). These impediments are a part of why lawyers have the opportunity to make bank. The practice of law is restricted to a degree that the practitioners are able to set high prices. And a discussion of the essential unfairness of tacking educational access to wealth is a fair discussion to be had. But, that's what loans are for. Financing allows for access to professional schools by which people can drag their ass up the socioeconomic ladder. Everyone on here is in essentially the same boat when it comes to paying for law school. There are very few people to whom paying 300k out of pocket is no big deal. If you're really that debt averse, you can take a shot at a state school and go from there. You can still land a high paying job immediately out of school from my state school and only be 60k in debt if you play your cards (very) right. Or, push your narrative in a way to get more scholarship money.
The take away of all of this is that you've got to work the system. Use your rough financial straits to your benefit. Get test fee and admissions waivers from LSAC. Get that free prep course from LSAC as well. Apply for fee waivers from the schools if LSAC won't give them to you. Assuming you can take the bitterness out of your voice, use your financial struggles to write a killer essay about overcoming hardship.
So, like you said, suck it up. Move forward.
Also, the pencil thing... I'm pretty sure people are just kidding about that. Or it's like magical thinking. Like, honestly, what.
Hey, let's not with this type of attitude please.
BTW I found it - I knew I read about it here on 7sage -- http://www.preprobono.org/
Amazing what JY and team are doing over here
Like a few others, I haven't read all of the comments, but I'll add my two cents anyway.
Without any disrespect aimed at 7Sage or any other paid test prep company, I don't think there's a huge difference between free resources and paid resources for LSAT prep. Using free resources available through 7Sage, Manhattan Forums, Velocity, etc. paired with renting/reading real LSAT practice test books and general prep books from a library/bookstore is going to be very similar to paid alternatives for a majority of test takers, in my opinion.
That said, the inconveniences and moderate disadvantages of the free route certainly compound, and the convenience of a structured course cannot be understated. Still, overall, in this Information Age, I don't think economically disadvantaged students are nearly as handicapped as they would be if taking a different test or if from a prior era.
Conversely, I agree that a significant opportunity gap exists in regards to LSAT student at the very high and very low areas of the spectrum, as well as in matters of admission prep.
Students who deeply struggle, or are aiming to score past the 170 mark, will more often lack necessary prep support without tutoring, which is needless to say, a hefty expense even when looking at the cheaper options.
On the flip side, I think that free, quality admission prep is nearly nonexistent relative to what's out there for LSAT prep-- and that makes sense. The LSAT is a standardized test, but law school admissions are not standardized operations. General guidelines exist, but so much more of the application comes down to factors that vary case by case.
One can quite easily gage their level of preparation for the LSAT because practice tests strongly mirror what a student will face on test day.
You can't do the same with a personal statement or resume. Even if there are free forums where you can find people to help with those things, the number of people qualified and experienced in advising the specific elements of a law school app are slim. What would be a good essay for an MBA program may not be best for law school. What would be a strong essay for Stanford may not be a strong essay for a large state school. What would be a strong essay for one student's unique situation may not be a strong essay for a different student, even if they're applying to the same school for the same program.
Without quality professors, connections to people who know the process, or access to paid advising, admissions can feel like a shot in the dark sometimes. It's even more drastic for undergrad admissions, where hard factors play far less of a role for admission to top programs. Tons of kids with 36 ACTs and 4.0s get rejected from the Ivies.
Now of course, the pragmatic solutions to this are few, but worth acting upon. Specialized admissions counseling will continue to fall behind a paywall for the foreseeable future, but communities like 7sage's and the institutions themselves can continue to share information that lets applicants make more informed decisions in their applications. I have faith that such a goal will be actualized, and places like 7Sage are a big reason why
@ McNeeleyt I offer some sincere observations... I am far from rich, in fact I am poor. However, there are some things you can do that are much more productive than festering about relative financial positions to everyone else out there in the world.
First, LSAC has fee waivers. If you are extremely poor as you say you are, you should have a high chance of being issued a fee waiver from LSAC = no CAS fee (savings of $100), 2 free LSATS (savings of $360), and an official LSAC review book (200 pages). Too boot, virtually every law school in the nation will give you an application fee waiver, meaning, applying to a law school is only the cost of sending your CAS report, which is $35 per school. Even the one school that doesn't automatically give you an application fee waiver (Stanford), will almost certainly give you a fee waiver if you fill out their fee waiver application (I have done this successfully twice).
Secondly, I am not sure why you only looking at the most expensive LSAT services; there are cheaper ways to study for the LSAT: 1) find someone to study with or borrow their materials; 2) some LSAT self-instruction books are rather cheap, and quite good. For example, the "LSAT Trainer" is $35, and I am sure you can get a used one for even cheaper. 3) there is endless free information online. 7Sage has videos of every single logic game on every LSAT, for free.
Third, there are programs that are designed for people exactly like you that are offered by law schools (usually during the summer). How do I know this? I was apart of one. UCLA has one. UC Davis has one. Several other schools have them, look for them. They are free, and are specifically for under-represented, or poor aspiring law school students.
While I strongly sympathize and relate with your situation, I do not agree with your analysis of the outcome of it. Indeed, you might have to work harder than some people that are privileged with money or connections. But many of us do it because we want to go to law school. I would encourage you to look beyond the problem, as you will never find the solutions in it.
@nevadacity37 You got your Trainer for $35.... I need to get a refund...
The new editions are like $50 bucks but you can get the older versions from 2013-2016 used for significantly less used. I would highly suggest buying the new one if you can to ensure it doesn't have any writing/erasing in it. You want the drills inside to be pristine!
It was "used" but essentially brand new; I paid $35 for it. I could have gotten a used copy, for less, but you really should do the drills to get the most out of that book.
"than festering about relative financial positions to everyone else out there in the world" ya, I'm good on your reply. This community is rude as fuck lol I can't wait to delete my profile.
If you truly grew up poor, "looking beyond" poverty, something that has afflicted the entirety of your life, is laughable. Thanks tho
Thank you for your reply!! It was lovely to read and oddly reassuring.
I'm the one with the attitude, after that reply from that person? .... Sure, okay.
Yes, it is you who responded to my sincere response with snide sarcasm. I merely pointed out to you that 7Sage is not the place for that, and you responded with more rudeness.