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Related Discussions
How to shake the defeatist mentality?
LSATcantwin
Alum Member Sage ⭐
So since the September scores came out I've tried my very best to keep a positive outlook and mentality. I took a few timed sections and did fairly well (-2/-4 LR, -0 LG, -1 RC) but in the back of my head I can't shake the feeling of that just being a fluke. I feel like I'm somehow cheating myself and that those scores are not really representative of my ability. I justify it by looking at my September results (-13 LR, -0 LG, -7 RC).
I tend to be someone who likes to offer motivation and to be encouraging to others. A lot of the time I'm even able to internalize it myself. But lately that's just not happening.
I now feel like T-14 is not possible for me. As someone with a crap GPA and an LSAT that doesn't impress, I'm just not going to get into the schools I want to. I KNOW I am capable of being successful in law school. I KNOW I could handle a T-14 and their work load. I just feel extremely restricted by my past and have no way of expressing that to these schools in any meaningful manner.
While I understand that a 163 is not a score to laugh at, a 163 coupled with a 2.7 cumulative gpa pushes me really far down the ladder of schools who will consider me. Even with a compelling story (4 years in the Marine Corps, 70 credits of 4.0 after the Marine Corps) I feel there is nothing I can do to make up for my discretion when I was 18/19 other than a high LSAT.
I know no one likes to hear people complain. I know I'm not the only one in a situation like this. I know I need to suck it up and be positive. I just can't seem to flip that switch right now.
I am sorry for the long post. When I try to talk to people in my life about this all, they just don't understand. I'll try not to be too much of a negative Nancy in the community...I just need to get this off my chest.
Comments
I think what you're feeling is completely normal. Many lawyers I have spoken to that went to top schools told me to be prepared to take the LSAT more than once. It is often a prerequisite for people aiming for a strong school. Also, don't feel like you can't complain to us! You've written so many encouraging posts, it's ok to ask for encouragement in return
Really feeling for you, @LSATcantwin. I'm sure you can eventually get the score you want.
Sometimes a fresh perspective on certain sections of the test can give you both a confidence boost and a score boost, even if your fundamentals are strong. LR and RC are my strong suits, but I just recently went through Manhattan's LR book, and felt that it gave me a somewhat different perspective, and a deeper understanding. I'm now looking at their RC book, which is also very interesting.
No matter what getting a -7 is nothing to feel bad about. Unless you haven't been timing yourself diligently enough your score probably isn't a fluke. It sounds like you've made a lot of progress and you should really be proud of yourself. You can't escape your past, but you can shape your future and anyone who has worked hard enough to miss only 7 points after getting a 2.7 understands that. Admissions will see your hard work no matter what. I'm not sure when you're planning on taking the test, but it sounds like you're in great shape. If I were you I wouldn't burden myself with expectations because you don't want that to damage your score. You've come down long road of LSAT study; be grateful for your hard work and dedication. You shouldn't beat yourself over things that are out of your control now. Just take it in stride and succeed on test day. The whole 7sage forum is rooting for you!! Good luck!
I'm not in the habit of lying. I wouldn't call those scores a fluke. I have read your comments on various threads and can say with a high degree of confidence that you are both competent and possess valuable insight into various aspects of the LSAT. I believe you have the skills, moving forward my recommendation would be to take those skills and focus using them along with test taking and timing strategies. Easier said than done, I know, but from what I can see, you know the material.
David
Stay strong, bruh. We are all in this together.
"If there is no struggle, there is no progress"
-- Frederick Douglass aka the real Freddy D
"Box breathing" helped me a lot. Mindfulness meditation (Google: 'mindfulness') is another big one. Pick some forms of meditation and practice them for a while. Sooner or later you'll find your life slowing down, in the best possible way I'd say.
@tringo335 This will be my 3rd take
hopefully it's different....thank you for the support!
@uhinberg I'm currently going into depth with the Trainer and PS Bibles. They both offer nuanced differences, but I think it might all be in the execution with me. 35min is just to little of time for my brain to function lol
@Marco (I can't tag you for some reason) Thanks for the encouragement. I have scored a 157 and 163 on the actual test so far and my PT score is around a 169/170 but I just can't bridge the gap it seems.
@BinghamtonDave I am looking at timing strategies right now. CantGetRight has given me a lot of really valuable advice. I just feel like my legs are cut out from under me and I'm trying to run a marathon! I'll keep pushing...I'm just not very confident to what end right now.
@Freddy_D This test is draining man....lol it's a whole new kind of struggle for me....
@goingfor99th I'm looking into better ways to relax. I'll deff look into stuff like that in more depth. @"vanessa fisher" gave me some really good advice and youtube videos on this before she aced the LSAT. I am a hard core type A personality and find it really hard to turn off.
@LSATcantwin don't get discouraged, keep pushing! Do not let your thoughts stop you from reaching your goal. Try Vipassana meditation as @"vanessa fisher" recommended in a prior post. I've been doing this one- it is helping on controlling my wandering mind and stress on this test. There are several guided meditation videos in youtube, give it a try
I keep citing this but I watched all the videos for the course on Coursera called Learn to Learn and here are some points from that course that I hope help you:
-what you're feeling is called Imposter Syndrome. Everyone [EVERYONE!!!!] has it. You're good enough and deserve a high score just as much as anyone else who's worked as hard as you.
-try to focus on the process and not the product; focus on your section strategy instead of your score. This will decrease your anxiety. Each test or section is just practicing your process of taking the section.
-If you are anxious during the test, focus on your breathing. Your stomach should be going up and down: Deep breaths.
I hope this helps. I have a sub-par uGPA too and my shot is with a high LSAT. Focusing on that hasn't helped. The points I wrote above have.
Good luck!
Personally, I'd recommend Manhattan over the Bibles. There is something really beautiful about the way that Manhattan treats many of the question types as subcategories of one family. You can get a used copy of the 4th edition for really cheap (That's what I did).
Manhattan LR and RC are way superior to the Bibles. Totally would also recommend picking up these books as supplements. It works really well in conjunction with the CC.
@"Alex Divine" I really like the concept of "Assumption Family" for LR. And I think the Scale metaphor for RC can be very helpful.
Same, dude. I'm as high-strung as they come. I never realized how active and 'loud' my mind was until I learned how to box breathe. Hallelujah for the LSAT.
100% agree! Glad I'm not the only one on here, haha.
I've honestly been going through the same slump @LSATcantwin. It definitely did not help learning about all the schools that are now taking GRE scores when I've spent years devoting my life to the LSAT =(. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I know how difficult it is to not be able to fully unload your stresses to those who aren't going through the LSAT process, but never be wary about sharing it here! I'm sure others, like myself, are glad to know that they are not alone in this.
P.S. I'm sure those scores are not fluke and kicking LSAT butt is in your future!
https://media.giphy.com/media/NNeyoSjPTDfhe/giphy.gif
As cheesy as it sounds, start your day or study sessions with 5-10 positive affirmations. Get that subconscious mind trained.
Namaste (of course)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all go through it and I know how you feel because I constantly feel that way now too. But, you will learn your worth as a student by fighting that mentality. What was your major if you don't mind me asking? Because, many T-14 schools take into consideration your major if you have a low GPA. You might be counting yourself out earlier and faster than you think for no reason. I hope I'm not sounding too harsh, I just don't want you feeling like you won't be admitted to a T-14 school solely on your undergraduate GPA. Addendums also help explain low GPAs especially if there was extenuating circumstances. But also remember if you have to go to a good school that's in the top 25 or top 50 schools and have a kick butt first year (which I'm sure you'll have no problem with simply from hearing of your work ethic) then you could easily transfer to a T-14 school. Just keep these things in mind. A high GPA or high LSAT don't even ensure admission, they may put you in a good place but they don't guarantee admission.
Political Science.
I'm non-traditional though. I went to school right after high-school and was not ready. I dropped classes, got a lot of F's and D's and just really didn't care at all. I did this from 18 years old until around 21 years old. I then joined the Marine Corps and everything changed. Once I got out of the Marines at 25 I really started to care about school. I went back to school and got a 4.0 until my degree was complete. Unfortunately the 4.0 was destroyed by all the F's in my past so now I'm sitting at a 2.7 cumulative GPA. From what everyone tells me I absolutely need a 170+ if my dreams of T-14 are to be realized, but for whatever reason my PT average does not want to transfer over to my actual test.
I wasn't expecting this much of a response. Thank you to everyone who has commented and offered advice. I've read each and every one of them and taken them into consideration. It's just such a massive feeling to shake I am really struggling with it....
@LSATcantwin That's 7Sage for you. As you said, people who have not worked hard on the LSAT cannot really understand what you're going through, but many of us do!
@LSATcantwin definitely not a fluke! I'm currently going through the curriculum for the second time right now and I see your comments on everything, providing alternative explanations and helping people out. What helped me last year when I didn't do well was giving myself 5 days to feel bad about myself, I don't know if that works for everyone but it was helpful to me because you can't just force yourself to be positive all the time.
That being said, clearly everyone here believes in you. You're definitely capable of scoring well and based on what I've read, you're post marine schooling experience illustrates your growth and maturity as an individual and adult. I know it's easier said than done but don't let the pressure overwhelm you!
Well I met a1L at Georgetown the other day who gave me a tour of GULC (I'm a senior George Washington) and I asked him "what if my g.p.a is subpar?" He honestly said to me "Well I got in with a low g.p.a but I had a good LSAT score and good rec letters." I'm not sure if he had 170+ I think his was like in the high 160's I can't remember exactly but there's an example of someone at t14 in a similar situation as you. It's not ideal but I mean it's not impossible especially if you were able to get a 163 the first time around.
@LSATcantwin I get it now so you're just saying that there wasn't an extenuating circumstance for the initial low GPA. Truthfully, I think you leaving and then going back to college after having life experience may play a positive role in your admissions applications. I still think you might be fine, have you spoken to any admissions councilors of T-14 schools? I think what you should do is probably try to. For instance, if haven't already, you should go to one of the LSAC Forums still going on that are near you. I really feel like talking to an admissions councilor there may benefit you. I was supposed to go to the one in New York City since it's relatively close to me, but I waited to late to take off work so now I'm going to the one in Nov for Boston. But, you could also speak to Anna Ivey who was formerly Dean of Admissions at The University of Chicago for like an hour and see how she could help you. Especially since 7sage's admissions programs are full. I think you really need someone who's been in an admissions councilor's shoes to look over the whole application and direct you even more. Never hurts to have additional help, because that's what I'm doing in the case that I don't do better (although I know I can) in Dec.
I wish I could tell you I have overcome this feeling completely but that hasn't been the case. I think I have cried each day and felt overwhelmed about even little things in life - for example I pretty much lost it when my boyfriend left a sweater on chair! so yeah...lol
The point is I am stressed and its coming out in weird ways. But what has started to help is that I got back into it little by little. I didn't set super high expectations and I just took it day by day. I formulated hypothesis with some tutors about what could have gone wrong on the test day and I have started building strategies to help with that. I took another fresh test this Friday and I have only reviewed 3 sections so far but I have only gone -2 combined. So although I can still underperform on test day I am trying to at least build a higher score with better strategies. I do think when you can consistently score in 170's your results may have a lot to do with your strategies and if they are well suited to your needs especially how well you respond to the test. For example, my answer sheet on test day was wet and I didn't pay attention to it on the test day but it turns out that was sweat from stress! It's gross but my body was responding to the test with fight and flight mode without me even being aware of it. And when you are in that mode you can overlook a lot of things on test which can be kind of fatal in our case.
I think you are super capable of getting a 170 and above on this test, especially if you were scoring there before. We just have to figure out a strategy that lets us score that way with how we respond to stress as well as have fewer chances of lower outliers.
I have been told to do practice problems all the time. I do think that is a necessary part of the preparation. One thing my dad was emphasizing is knowing the theory cold. On the LSAT, it seems like they are testing the theory of argumentation. A quick read that put some things into perspective include A Rulebook for Arguments (https://www.amazon.com/Rulebook-Arguments-Hackett-Student-Handbooks/dp/0872209547/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1508938969&sr=8-1&keywords=rulebook+for+arguments).
Maybe that might help your logical reasoning. That seems to be where you could improve. I guess my rationale is that they can pull any type of question on subject matter. However, if you know the theory cold, you might become better at applying it in novel situations. I hope this helps.