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Related Discussions
Retake 173
**Question: ** should I retake the LSAT?
**Background: ** I took the Dec. LSAT (first time) and scored a 173. I know that’s a good score, but it’s below my PT average (last three PTs: 179, 180, 180). I had an unexpectedly busy week leading up to the LSAT and felt a bit burned out during the test. I am an international applicant, with a degree from Oxford law (GPA assessed ‘superior’ by LSAC) and a few prestigious national scholarships in the UK. I plan to apply next cycle and would ideally like Harvard or Yale, but will apply across the T14. Although I’m a UK citizen, I currently work in the US, providing post-closing legal analysis on large M&A transactions.
**Concerns: ** My concerns are twofold: (i) I don’t think I’ve scored at my potential; (ii) I’m worried my score is inadequate for a run at Harvard and Yale, particularly considering the weight accorded to the LSAT scores of international applicants without a reportable GPA.
**Potential retake strategy: ** I would aim to part-time tutor the LSAT between now and June, teaching 2-3 classes a week after work. This would effectively fund any retake as my time preping / delivering lessons would double as personal study time. I would then address my remaining weaknesses in the weeks leading up to the test.
Any advice would be very much appreciated!
Comments
There averages are a 173. So at this point you are not going to impress them much with a higher score. I think it's now more about the rest of the application. But if you feel there is little/no risk of you getting a lower score. And a high probability you get a higher score, then just retake it. Especially if you are tutoring it.
If you want to start in Fall 2019, then retake it in June.
If you think you can score higher than a 173, and retaking won’t delay your application then go for it.
Thanks for the advice! I think I’ll see how tutoring goes and make a judgment call in April / May 2018 about whether to retake.
A 173 is going to get you in anywhere if your essays are strong enough. I'd say your GPA is already good enough, though I don't know how the GPA conversion works from UK to US. That would be my only cause for concern, really. I've read that once you start scoring in the mid-170s consistently, luck starts to play a bigger role in your performance. That is to say, there's absolutely no guarantee you'll improve your score on a second take since you're already scoring so high, and actually a decent chance you'll stay the same/improve negligibly.
That isn't to say a higher score wouldn't help your chances, though. It may at YSH, but perhaps applying with the first-take 173 is less of a gamble. The Top 3 use numbers in a different way from most other schools.
I personally would not retake.
Congrats on the great score! If you are whole heartedly set on HYS, and really believe there's a good chance you'll get a better score I'd say go for the retake. Since the 75% percentile for both schools is a few points higher than your score, it may be advantageous to try for the extra few points.
If you are comfortable with any of the other Top 5 or 6 schools, I'd say don't retake. With your other softs you are almost guaranteed a spot at a T5 and with your current score HYS looks pretty good too.
Since you’re applying for fall of 2019, I say yes Re-take. Normally, I wouldn’t say that someone who scored a 173 but it does sound like you could certainly score higher and if you absolutely want Harvard or Yale, then a 176+ would be extremely helpful. It sounds like you have a solid plan, so I would recommend signing up for the June test.
I wish I had a 173
if you think you can actually hit that 179 or 180 on test day, I say go for it!
I'd say this is a case where a retake may be warranted. Especially if you were PTing at 179. I'd say work more on "test day" scenarios, perhaps even seeing if you could PT in the actual room and just get yourself as used to the test day conditions as possible. It doesn't sound like you need to be drilling intensely, just keeping your mind sharp.
Yeah, I might retake. Getting just another point or two would be huge and if you're confident you can pick it up it'd probably be worth it.
Just be careful that you don't rely too heavily on tutoring as your prep for retaking. It's better to be Michael Jordan than Phil Jackson if you're the one testing. Just make sure your prep doesn't get too abstract or theoretical. You know how to study, clearly, so don't neglect the basics.
Based on your PT performance, it does seem unlikely that you would score lower than a 173 on the retake (though of course, things happen), so it seems a retake would only be of benefit to you. 173 vs. 179 is a pretty big jump. Seems worthwhile to me if you are confident.
https://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/data-(lsac-resources)-docs/repeaterdata.pdf
Based on the stats, it looks like your score is as likely to increase as it is to decrease.
Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it! I agree that the risk is dropping a few points, so I'll only retake if extremely confident that I'll improve.
My GPA, although not reportable, equates to a 4.0 on the scale LSAC attached to my transcript. I'm confident that my softs are pretty strong — a few years of legal research work, current M&A work, competing in high-profile sporting events during undergrad. I just want to make sure I give myself the best possible chance and it sounds like a slightly higher LSAT may help.
@goingfor99th Thanks for linking the repeater data. It's interesting reading. Of course, those kind of statistics don't speak to a given individual's chance and I would only retake if I'm consistently scoring in the 177-180 range. There are definitely no guarantees when trying to move up the 99th percentile, however, since the margin for error is so slim.
@"Cant Get Right" I like the Jordan / Jackson analogy! I'll be sure to focus on my weaknesses as I get closer to the test, but I think teaching others the basics may help nail down my own understanding of the fundamentals.
I think I'm going to go forward with my retake plan. Worst case scenario is I tutor for a few months after work and earn some extra money — I don't need to fully commit to a retake until closer to the June 2018 test.
Thanks again for the advice!
Btw OP, don't international applicants have like a scale for their LSAC GPA? like superior, etc.?
I had a buddy who got into Harvard last cycle with a 171 and what I think was considered "average" as their GPA placement.
with a 173 and depending on what your GPA thing is, I think you have a shot at Harvard, Yale is unpredictable but ya.
@TheMikey LSAC do indeed grade international degrees on a scale ranging from 'below average' to 'superior'. I have two degrees — undergrad and UK law degree — both of which are graded 'superior' by LSAC. They also give a UK - US conversion table, which puts my suggested US GPA at 4.0 for both degrees. I'm not sure how much weight LSAC's ranking is given by law schools, however, particularly when most top US schools are pretty familiar with the UK's grading system (first, upper second, lower second, third, pass, fail).
It's good to hear about your friend getting in to Harvard last cycle! There's so little data on international applicants without US GPAs that it's hard to get a good idea of what my chances are like.
To follow up my last comment, this is LSAC's grading scale for international degrees, lifted from my transcript evaluation:
So, you're good on that front. Now a retake is potentially less of a risk for T3, Yale specifically.
Ahh ok I see! If you got into Harvard and would go without a retake then best of luck! Despite the lack of data for international applicants, I think you may have a chance tbh. But you'll never know if you don't try
With his softs+diversity, he'll definitely have a good chance. I'm not sure how many spots the T3 reserve for international applicants, if it is the case they do that. Who knows? Something to look into.
The argument for retaking is strong, and stronger if you're seriously interested in high-caliber schools that are not Harvard and Yale. Here's my reasoning.
Your score qualifies you for admission at any US law school. The advantage of a higher score is two-fold:1) It increases your likelihood of admission (applies for all schools, including HY), and 2) it increases the amount of money they'll give you. At your score range, each additional point could be as much as $10,000 in merit aid, say people I know who regularly counsel people on admission to top five law schools. But Harvard and Yale are an exception to the second advantage, as to my understanding (and I admit that I have not verified this myself), they only give need-based aid, not merit aid.
Good luck!
Not especially related, just asking this out of curiosity: is there a particular reason you're leaning toward obtaining an LLB and JD? Do you think it's worth the time and (maybe) money to do a JD on top of an LLB? Given that LLM's from certain US universities qualify students to practice in specific US jurisdictions, wouldn't an LLM be a more convenient choice? This is, of course, assuming that you're open to doing an LLM.
@thisissparta I’ve definitely thought about doing an LLM, but ultimately decided a JD was the better option for three reasons:
Job portability within the US. My wife is a medical student and, once she’s a doctor, may have to move states for her career. I don’t want to overly limit her options down the line and only a few states allow LLMs to practice.
A lot of top schools give advanced standing to JD students with foreign law degrees. I know Harvard has previously allowed UK trained lawyers to do the JD in two years. I know Sen. Feingold, who did the same degree program I did at Oxford, was able to do it in two.
I think I’ll have better job prospects with a JD.
That said, a friend who was a year above me at Oxford did an LLM at Penn and is now a lawyer in NY. So it definitely is possible.
@matthewjosephkahn Thanks for your input! I was thinking along the same lines regarding scholarship offers. If a few points extra end up being worth $10,000+, then time spent studying seems well paid!