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The common understanding among law school applicants is that if you want a reasonable shot at practicing "big law" you HAVE to get T14. My questions is, why 14? I understand that you have to draw a line at some point, but I'm just wondering why its 14. Would the difference (chances getting into big law firms) between Cornell (#13) and Georgetown (#14), if there is any, be significantly different from the difference between Georgetown and UT (#15)?
I understand that it seems silly, but many people I've talked to really seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the idea of T14. So really, two questions, to whoever either has an answer or any opinion. I am currently in the running for most of T14. I am about 90% sure I would like to work in big law, and perhaps even internationally, so geography and regional strengths are really non-factors. Would it be unreasonable to choose UCLA #16 over say the #12, 13, or 14 schools if I just like UCLA better? Also, if 14 does happen to be the magic number, how do we account for the fact that these rankings DO change, and that what's 14 today may be 16 or 17 in 3 years?
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Thank you for the clarification guys. I naively thought T14 simply meant Ranks 1-14. Makes more sense now.
Made up languages! General knowledge about Scottish poets! And pictures of doggies!
The consistency has really been a product of the practices of USNWR IMO... And since 1987 was their first ranking it would be the outlier since I think schools made changes after that to game them somewhat, so they have definitely developed a consistency after that first time, but I have several misgivings over their practices that are likely better left to another discussion. So yes you're absolutely right that the consistency has been there in their rankings virtually since their inception, though how much those rankings translate to better outcomes across the board is still up for debate, though the notion of general portability still exists.
I had seen earlier rankings like these from 1975 and hadn't realized until you brought it up that it wasn't USNWR: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2006/10/the_first_law_s.html
Much like the old school LSAT it is interesting to see how things have changed.
@2543.hopkins one can wish :D and yes @wraith985-4026 that is correct... the only time that there was a variation was the first ranking of schools... that was 87... other than that, its always been stable...
I'm pretty sure that's not true - the T14 is the T14 because it's been consistent for like 2 decades now. A quick google search gave me this link:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=213
The order varies, but the only ranking of the entire bunch where the top 14 wasn't exactly the same as the modern top 14 was 1987, which is functionally useless.
Of course, I can't be arsed to double check his data, so if his data is wrong then I'm obviously wrong too.
What IS variable is 15-25, where there's been tons of movement over the years.
The T14 is not stable at all...while of course there are perennial mainstays, if you go back and check out the T14 before the 2000s there is some craziness going on.
Hahaha! Ummmmm unfair advantage ... ???
@2543.hopkins lol yeah I get it... 2 points well more like 3: (1) you'd be really REALLY happy in law school... (2) I don't have torts till next sem oh and (3) I have actually taught torts before ;)
@alexandergreene93842 sorry yes I agree with @dzhai218191. The only reason I think it may help is that I work directly for two partners who are very influential and have expressed their recognition of my potential to come back, but besides that it won't matter haha
T14 = schools that have never been ranked outside of 1-14. Sure, Duke can possible move down the rankings from 9 to 11, but it has never been ranked 15+. It's a metric that supposedly shows the stability of going to these schools as these have and (presumably) always will be the top 14 law schools in the US.
@alexandergreene93842 I don't think Katherine's experience working in Wachtell will really give her a leg up in getting interviews for OCI. Those are pretty much all determined by grades. It could help her during the interviews because she could actually talk to associates about working at a firm and they might trust her ability to handle the hours moreso than someone who has never worked in a big law firm before.
Regional schools are risky unless you're dead set on staying in the area of your school and you're sure you can excel at the school. No matter where you go to school (YLS excluded), it seems your grades matter more and more thanks to the laws of supply and demand -- too many lawyers, not enough jobs. So if you're looking to go to UF or FSU, make sure you want to be in Florida and can excel at either one of those schools.
The logic behind T14 or bust, from my understanding, is that the lower in rankings you go, the more doors you close for yourself. Maybe down the line you realize you want to clerk or go public interest instead of working in big law. If you go to a T14 school, you have the flexibility to pursue multiple routes because of the name brand. Outside of the T14, T20, T25, T30, your chances to pursue something other than working at a law firm in your region becomes harder and harder.
*pushes back into crack*
Just kidding! Hello, would you like a torta? Get it? Tort-themed foods?
Lol @2543.hopkins on does find time to emerge from the cracks of crushing 1L workload every now and then ;)
WHOA it's a @nielsinha488 sighting!
@jhsong919421 wrote a really good response to @nielsinha488.Chen on this issue a couple of years ago... here it is: http://classic.7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/301/how-do-you-evaluate-your-lsat-upper-limit Litian Now goes to UT Austin School of Law and is SUPER happy... but that is besides the point... what is important is JY's analysis of the exact dilemma that you are dealing with @jhsong919421
Correction—not "the only way to pay bills," but perhaps the most efficient way to service enormous debt within a short period of time. You know, so those of us who will be in our mid-thirties when we graduate can do other things with our dwindling youth.
Actually @974 will really be in his LATE thirties at that point ...
I'm not saying that working in big law is a bad idea, nor am I claiming that people only want to work in big law for the money. What I am claiming is that if the only reason you want to go to a T14 is because you want to work in big law, and the only reason you want to work in big law is to pay off the loans you took on to go to a T14, there is a circular reasoning that needs to ironed out. Think about why the statistics show so many lawyers as being unhappy. It seems like people like @2543.hopkins and @974 have thought out their decisions, so I am in no way discrediting that, but I do caution people who make assumptions about money/careers without openly and honestly considering what they are getting into!
As a fully-self supporting adult who does not have anyone to help pay for law school, I think assuming that the only way to pay bills is to go into big law is silly. Two main reasons:
1) 160,000k - 190,000k a year as a starting salary is not necessary to "pay bills" or even pay back loans, even considering full tuition.
2) If the desire to go into big law stems from the desire to be able to pay off law school loans, that's some serious circular reasoning.
I'm mostly playing devils advocate here, but it comes from speaking with a lot of people who are the ones who took on hundreds of thousands in debt and are SO unhappy but can't leave because of the so-called "golden handcuffs."
.
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Why do you disagree with this? For fully self-supporting adults who do not have anyone to help pay for law school, how else are we supposed to pay our bills? And still be able to like, buy a modest starter home by the time we're 40?
Understood that I am extremely lucky to have had the opportunity for first-hand exposure, but I also think that exposure is what puts me in a position to caution people!
I actually vehemently disagree with this, and it's this kind of thinking that makes so many associates miserable.
"and given the ridiculous cost of a legal education across the board, the only two decent and relatively common options to recover from that debt burden are big law or loan forgiveness."
But we can get into that in a more private conversation, if interested!
It is Cravath, FYI. And I work on the busiest case team in Manhattan (i.e. we bill more hours than anyone -- I'm just on my 15 min lunch break right now!)
:D
Also probably considerably less threat of bodily harm in Biglaw. Probably.
I've worked similar hours in the military and honestly it was definitely the unpredictability and being on call 24/7 for 2 hour recalls that was the worst of it... But triple my salary and I wouldn't give a shit.
Note to self: the fact that this makes me salivate might be something to explore in my journal. Masochism? Is that masochism I detect in myself?
I'm one of those family-free people so it's exciting to think about something filling up my time like that. Something other than rewatching Downton Abbey.