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moving from 170 to 174+

imharrisimharris Alum Member
in General 466 karma

i've often heard of this being the final plateau for lsat students.

for those of you that are averaging in the 175 range: how did you get there?

Comments

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    Not there, but a lot of people who have gotten there have always spoken highly of tutors and recording oneself and having said recording reviewed by a tutor. At that level you need to be focus on things beyond strategy. Like how fast and neat you can diagram and finishing with enough extra time to get those curve breakers.

  • This is a great question. Been stuck in the 169-173 range for months. I'm sure a tutor could help, but I've heard of a lot of people who score that high and just self-study.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @zmeeker91 said:
    This is a great question. Been stuck in the 169-173 range for months. I'm sure a tutor could help, but I've heard of a lot of people who score that high and just self-study.

    It sure is a hard plateau to break.

    Where are you missing those last few points and what is your BR score at?

  • edited July 2017 99 karma

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:
    This is a great question. Been stuck in the 169-173 range for months. I'm sure a tutor could help, but I've heard of a lot of people who score that high and just self-study.

    It sure is a hard plateau to break.

    Where are you missing those last few points and what is your BR score at?

    The best metaphor for my situation is it feels like I'm playing wack-a-mole. It seems like it is always a different section that gives me trouble and keeps me from breaking my plateau, but probably most consistently the games section (grouping games in particular). RC occasionally gives me trouble too though.

    I don't really score my BR. That being said, there's really only a handful of LR or RC questions I get wrong with unlimited time (LG is the easiest to get 100% on with unlimited time). The last BR I scored was a 178, but I stopped after that because that was way unrepresentative of how I actually do.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @zmeeker91 said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:
    This is a great question. Been stuck in the 169-173 range for months. I'm sure a tutor could help, but I've heard of a lot of people who score that high and just self-study.

    It sure is a hard plateau to break.

    Where are you missing those last few points and what is your BR score at?

    The best metaphor for my situation is it feels like I'm playing wack-a-mole. It seems like it is always a different section that gives me trouble and keeps me from breaking my plateau, but probably most consistently the games section (grouping games in particular). RC occasionally gives me trouble too though.

    I don't really score my BR. That being said, there's really only a handful of LR or RC questions I get wrong with unlimited time (LG is the easiest to get 100% on with unlimited time). The last BR I scored was a 178, but I stopped after that because that was way unrepresentative of how I actually do.

    Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

  • Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

    I haven't actually considered that, but I guess you're right. Figuring out ways to shave off time on some questions could definitely help. Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

  • akistotleakistotle Member 🍌🍌
    edited July 2017 9366 karma

    Not there, but have you tried video-recording yourself? Maybe you can increase a few points by how you are performing.

    @zmeeker91 said:
    Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

    Yes. I have asked some to look at how I actually performed and received feedbacks. I also keep a timing sheet (Q1: 30 seconds, Q2: 45 seconds....), so if she/he can't look at the whole footage, we will only look at some questions that took more than 100 seconds.

    But the video footages have to be very clear. Otherwise, it's hard for them to watch and analyze.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @zmeeker91 said:

    Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

    I haven't actually considered that, but I guess you're right. Figuring out ways to shave off time on some questions could definitely help. Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Yes, any of the 7Sage tutors will watch your tapes and help you! And it's a very big help and many of my friends and now current sages have sworn by this method.

  • akistotleakistotle Member 🍌🍌
    9366 karma

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Exactly. The. Same. I was spending more than 40 seconds on these types of questions when I shouldn't be.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @akistotle said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Exactly. The. Same. I was spending more than 40 seconds on these types of questions when I shouldn't be.

    Yeah, I re-watched a video and I was spending a damn minute on an easy MP question. I started to realize little mistakes like this and once I dealt with them, soon after I got my first -3 on an LR section!

  • doyouevenLSATdoyouevenLSAT Monthly Member
    609 karma

    hey when do yall think it would be a good idea to start tracking and recording oneself. For instance right away or after i can at least break mid 160s, or if i am not improving, even after drilling what the analysis points out my weaknesses are?

    Just some idea about how long after (PTS) did you all start doing it.

  • NotMyNameNotMyName Alum Member Sage
    5320 karma

    @MichaelTheArchAngel I don't the recording is helpful until your BR score is above your target score. The reason for this is that recording yourself is more about execution than fundamentals. If you don't have the understanding to reach your target score yet, then your focus should remain there.

    My 2 cents. Curious to hear other opinions.

  • jack.igoejack.igoe Legacy Member
    544 karma

    @jkatz1488 said:
    @MichaelTheArchAngel I don't the recording is helpful until your BR score is above your target score. The reason for this is that recording yourself is more about execution than fundamentals. If you don't have the understanding to reach your target score yet, then your focus should remain there.

    My 2 cents. Curious to hear other opinions.

    Agreed, once your BR score is above your target score, you're main focus should be strategy concerning timing and skipping time sink questions. If you haven't checked it out already, the Post Core Curriculum webinar has a section on this specifically!

  • dantlee14dantlee14 Member
    617 karma

    @zmeeker91 said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:
    This is a great question. Been stuck in the 169-173 range for months. I'm sure a tutor could help, but I've heard of a lot of people who score that high and just self-study.

    It sure is a hard plateau to break.

    Where are you missing those last few points and what is your BR score at?

    The best metaphor for my situation is it feels like I'm playing wack-a-mole. It seems like it is always a different section that gives me trouble and keeps me from breaking my plateau, but probably most consistently the games section (grouping games in particular). RC occasionally gives me trouble too though.

    I don't really score my BR. That being said, there's really only a handful of LR or RC questions I get wrong with unlimited time (LG is the easiest to get 100% on with unlimited time). The last BR I scored was a 178, but I stopped after that because that was way unrepresentative of how I actually do.

    Fool proof the games if you haven't already. If you're losing any points on logic games, it's like throwing away free money. Since you're already scoring in a high 160s-low 170s range, perfecting the games could be all the boost you need to get 174+.

    If you have foolproofed 1-35, then use the 7sage tool to sort the other LG sections by grouping games and focus on the PTs with lots of In/Out and grouping games. Once you can consistently get to -1 or -0 on LG sections, then you should move on to shoring up LR.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    edited July 2017 23929 karma

    @MichaelTheArchAngel said:
    hey when do yall think it would be a good idea to start tracking and recording oneself. For instance right away or after i can at least break mid 160s, or if i am not improving, even after drilling what the analysis points out my weaknesses are?

    Just some idea about how long after (PTS) did you all start doing it.

    I agree with @jkatz1488 that the recording won't be as useful until your BR score is above your target score. Still, though, it helps me and my BR isn't near my target score. It just helped me see where I was wasting time on LR and how to more efficiently execute certain game types.

    I also don't think it would hurt if you watch a few sections and examine mechanics and timing on certain questions. Like I said, even as a beginner, you shouldn't be spending 1:30 on a MP question, for example.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @jackigoe said:

    @jkatz1488 said:
    @MichaelTheArchAngel I don't the recording is helpful until your BR score is above your target score. The reason for this is that recording yourself is more about execution than fundamentals. If you don't have the understanding to reach your target score yet, then your focus should remain there.

    My 2 cents. Curious to hear other opinions.

    Agreed, once your BR score is above your target score, you're main focus should be strategy concerning timing and skipping time sink questions. If you haven't checked it out already, the Post Core Curriculum webinar has a section on this specifically!

    Yes, one of the most helpful webinars. The way @"Cant Get Right" breaks down the different stages of prep makes things much more helpful: https://7sage.com/webinar/post-core-curriculum-study-strategies/

  • Cant Get RightCant Get Right Alum Member Sage 🍌
    27107 karma

    Great advice already. I specifically second advice on needing to go -0 on LG, and to develop high level, aggressive pacing strategies for LR.

    A 175 is essentially a perfect test with a margin of error. You can miss maybe 1 LG question every 2 or 3 PTs. That's really about all you can afford. So tip number one is to essentially become perfect on LG.

    As others have stated, taking footage and reviewing it is essential. It provides us with an objective overview of an otherwise subjective experience. It's very difficult to evaluate our own performance without that objectivity. When we use the footage to break down our times, we really become cognizant of some interesting things about our pacing, as above comments have addressed. My LR average isn't what it is because I just never make a mistake, it's what it is because I have 10 minutes at the end to examine any potentiality for having made a mistake.

    Recognition of this potentiality for error is another skill in and of itself. If you're averaging in the 170's, you should have the foundational knowledge to be able to do this. It is a skill though, and like any other it's one that takes deliberate practice to master. It not only informs us of where to return to potentially correct an error, but it also allows us to fly through any question where we don't detect any meaningful potential for error. I'm actually pretty unsatisfied with my performance if I don't complete my BR while still under time. Obviously, being able to BR the whole thing is great. And that all comes down to time management which all starts with footage review.

  • imharrisimharris Alum Member
    466 karma

    this is all very useful... thanks for the suggestions!

    i'm gathering that the two main steps are:
    1. recording and analyzing yourself for time management insights.
    2. write out explanations during br.

    i'd also like to address the idea of a unicorn score: when i started studying for the lsat my goal score was a 165. i hit 170 on the june test. i'm retaking it in september because i want to prove to myself that i can reach the last plateau. i think this can be a bit dangerous. at a certain point we should be happy with ourselves and our scores.

    curse the fate of the perfectionist.

  • dennisgerrarddennisgerrard Alum Member
    1639 karma

    Find a tutor!

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    edited July 2017 3072 karma

    @imharris said:
    this is all very useful... thanks for the suggestions!

    i'm gathering that the two main steps are:
    1. recording and analyzing yourself for time management insights.
    2. write out explanations during br.

    i'd also like to address the idea of a unicorn score: when i started studying for the lsat my goal score was a 165. i hit 170 on the june test. i'm retaking it in september because i want to prove to myself that i can reach the last plateau. i think this can be a bit dangerous. at a certain point we should be happy with ourselves and our scores.

    curse the fate of the perfectionist.

    Tell me about it. I really want to retake but I need to make sure it's for the right reasons. I absolutely hate that I went 21/27 on RC. I don't think I did nearly enough timed RC practice sections and it's really starting to bother me. On top of that, nearly all of my missed points from LR came as a result of time mismanagement.

    Ugh. I don't know if I have it in me, though.

  • imharrisimharris Alum Member
    466 karma

    @dennisgerrard yes! tutors are great! i fully endorse this!

    @goingfor99th retaking is a tough choice. ultimately for me it was a question of resources. the cost of studying for the next two months isn't greater than the potential reward of a higher score.

    maybe we should start a study group for dissatisfied, burned out, and blasé students hoping to score a 178.

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    3072 karma

    @imharris said:
    @dennisgerrard yes! tutors are great! i fully endorse this!

    @goingfor99th retaking is a tough choice. ultimately for me it was a question of resources. the cost of studying for the next two months isn't greater than the potential reward of a higher score.

    maybe we should start a study group for dissatisfied, burned out, and blasé students hoping to score a 178.

    We should! I'm trying to find inspiration with @Sami and the LR group tonight. I'm also tutoring someone this weekend.

    Go, go ambition!

  • Freddy_DFreddy_D Monthly Member
    2978 karma

    I'll take your 170 if you are not gonna use it :smiley: :wink:

  • ajcrowelajcrowel Member
    207 karma

    These should be of some use to you. They're what helped me make the final push to the 175 range.

    http://lsatters.com/forums/topic/where-to-start-again

    http://lsatters.com/forums/topic/advice-on-extreme-drilling-for-top-scorers/

  • edited July 2017 99 karma

    Fool proof the games if you haven't already. If you're losing any points on logic games, it's like throwing away free money. Since you're already scoring in a high 160s-low 170s range, perfecting the games could be all the boost you need to get 174+.

    If you have foolproofed 1-35, then use the 7sage tool to sort the other LG sections by grouping games and focus on the PTs with lots of In/Out and grouping games. Once you can consistently get to -1 or -0 on LG sections, then you should move on to shoring up LR.

    Very good point. I'm drilling grouping games right now with the fool proof method, and once I get through my focused drilling of grouping games fool proofing 1-35 will be my next objective. Looking over some of my recent tests, if I even got -3 on the games, it would get me into the 173-176 range. A lot of potential here, thanks.

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    edited July 2017 3072 karma

    @ajcrowel said:
    These should be of some use to you. They're what helped me make the final push to the 175 range.

    http://lsatters.com/forums/topic/where-to-start-again

    http://lsatters.com/forums/topic/advice-on-extreme-drilling-for-top-scorers/

    Great share. Thank you much. This may be just what I needed for the final push.

  • TheLSATTheLSAT Legacy Member
    301 karma

    @imharris The key to scoring 174 and above is mastering the logic of the exam, and having an effective approach that you can execute fluidly on every section of the exam. The skills to solving the questions on the test must become second nature to you (i.e. you no longer have to pause and think about what you're ought to do, but your arsenal is ready upon command).

  • conrad.pconrad.p Legacy Member
    48 karma

    There is no easy answer. To make things worse, for me, escaping the 170 plateau had nothing to do with knowledge. I was just being too passive a test taker, and overnight I determined that I would try tackling my PTs with a different "mindset," and my scores immediately soared. Sorry. This test is like a relationship. No one can give you advice at this level without intimately knowing your background with the LSAT, in my opinion. And mostly, depending on your view of how useful relationship advice can be, this needs to be worked out between you and your PTs.

  • sillllyxosillllyxo Legacy Member
    708 karma

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:

    Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

    I haven't actually considered that, but I guess you're right. Figuring out ways to shave off time on some questions could definitely help. Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Yes, any of the 7Sage tutors will watch your tapes and help you! And it's a very big help and many of my friends and now current sages have sworn by this method.

    How exactly do you go about taping yourself?

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @kkrystyna said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:

    Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

    I haven't actually considered that, but I guess you're right. Figuring out ways to shave off time on some questions could definitely help. Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Yes, any of the 7Sage tutors will watch your tapes and help you! And it's a very big help and many of my friends and now current sages have sworn by this method.

    How exactly do you go about taping yourself?

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Chromo-Inc-FlexHold-27-Gooseneck-Clamp-for-Cellphones-Black/199108631?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=326&adid=22222222227040354176&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=99307530994&wl4=pla-232386053554&wl5=9004886&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=111830520&wl11=online&wl12=199108631&wl13=&veh=sem

    I use this Gooseneck with my extra (old) iPhone so I have full memory at all times. It's my LSAT trap phone; no apps, just sections timed, lol. I've tried a couple other methods, like stacking books, another brand of holder. Yet, I find this to be the best so far.

    Just make sure you put your phone on airplane mode! :)

  • sillllyxosillllyxo Legacy Member
    708 karma

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @kkrystyna said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:

    Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

    I haven't actually considered that, but I guess you're right. Figuring out ways to shave off time on some questions could definitely help. Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Yes, any of the 7Sage tutors will watch your tapes and help you! And it's a very big help and many of my friends and now current sages have sworn by this method.

    How exactly do you go about taping yourself?

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Chromo-Inc-FlexHold-27-Gooseneck-Clamp-for-Cellphones-Black/199108631?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=326&adid=22222222227040354176&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=99307530994&wl4=pla-232386053554&wl5=9004886&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=111830520&wl11=online&wl12=199108631&wl13=&veh=sem

    I use this Gooseneck with my extra (old) iPhone so I have full memory at all times. It's my LSAT trap phone; no apps, just sections timed, lol. I've tried a couple other methods, like stacking books, another brand of holder. Yet, I find this to be the best so far.

    Just make sure you put your phone on airplane mode! :)

    so you attach it to yourself? interesting thx! i will have to try this

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @kkrystyna said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @kkrystyna said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @zmeeker91 said:

    Aside from drilling grouping games and continuing to fool proof and drill in general, I really think you'd really get a lot of out a tutor who can personalize advice for you and get you where you need to be.

    At this point in your prep, taking too long on certain types of questions can be the difference between a 172 and a 175.

    I haven't actually considered that, but I guess you're right. Figuring out ways to shave off time on some questions could definitely help. Do you know of any tutors that will actually sit and watch a test you've taken? That seems very time consuming, even if they speed up the video lol.

    It absolutely can! I was stuck missing -4/-5 on LR until I began taping myself and realizing I was taking way too long second guessing myself on easy MP and SA questions.

    Yes, any of the 7Sage tutors will watch your tapes and help you! And it's a very big help and many of my friends and now current sages have sworn by this method.

    How exactly do you go about taping yourself?

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Chromo-Inc-FlexHold-27-Gooseneck-Clamp-for-Cellphones-Black/199108631?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=326&adid=22222222227040354176&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=99307530994&wl4=pla-232386053554&wl5=9004886&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=111830520&wl11=online&wl12=199108631&wl13=&veh=sem

    I use this Gooseneck with my extra (old) iPhone so I have full memory at all times. It's my LSAT trap phone; no apps, just sections timed, lol. I've tried a couple other methods, like stacking books, another brand of holder. Yet, I find this to be the best so far.

    Just make sure you put your phone on airplane mode! :)

    so you attach it to yourself? interesting thx! i will have to try this

    Not exactly, lol. I attacked it to my desk where I take my PTs. It clips on the desk and you can angle it above you. It's nice and not very intrusive at all. I got mine off amazon for about $15 bucks.

  • rene4231rene4231 Alum Member
    162 karma

    How would I go about finding a tutor to review a tape?

  • inactiveinactive Alum Member
    12637 karma

    @rene4231 said:
    How would I go about finding a tutor to review a tape?

    https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/4760/7sages-approved-tutors

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