#### Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

# Help on Introduction to Logic Games & Sequencing Games

Member
46 karma

Hello. I am on the free trial portion of the 7Sage course. I am on "Introduction to Sequencing Games 1." I have a few questions.

First, here are the rules:
O is after N but before P.
S is after O.
K is before M and N.
Z is before M.
J is before K.

I was wondering if for sequencing games if we should write out ALL possible sequences on the test and when practicing. Should we also write out all the relationships in the sequence game? Here are the sequences that I have so far:
JZKMNOPS
JZKNMOSP
JKZMNOSP
JKZNMOSP
JKZNMOPS
KZJMNOPS
KZJMNOSP
ZJKMNOSP
ZJKMNOPS

How many more sequences are there??
Also, do Z and K have a relationship? If Z and K do not have a relationship, then why do J and P have a relationship?
Why do P and S not have a relationship? I am not fully understanding this based on the explanation in the lesson. (I am not fully understanding the backwards rule.)

Sorry if I am posting this in the wrong place; I just need some help.

Show Related Discussions

• #### Games Games Games lolI am seeing lots of improvement with with RC and LR as I am a couple of weeks away from PTing. But surprisingly I am noticing the most difficulty wit…

• Live Member Sage 7Sage Tutor
edited December 2017 10795 karma

@amandajwashington said:

I was wondering if for sequencing games if we should write out ALL possible sequences on the test and when practicing. Should we also write out all the relationships in the sequence game? Here are the sequences that I have so far:

So definitely do not write all the sequences down, games like these can be done in 3-5 minutes simply by putting them in organized fashion. Writing them down is going to take too long and you need that time for really hard games that might take 10 minutes or more.

Instead see if you can just put them in sequence.

Z---------M
J---------K -----N------O------P

It's hard to draw it here but you also have a connection between K---M and O----S.

When you put it in a drawing you can clearly see J is before M, K, N, O, and P.

Also, do Z and K have a relationship? If Z and K do not have a relationship, then why do J and P have a relationship?

We know Z is before M and K is before M. Try to see if that means if K is before Z or Z is before K. For example, if we know that every morning I eat a banana before my coffee and I also eat a toast before drinking my coffee. Does that mean I eat a banana before toast or vice versa? We just don't know. And that's okay. Knowing that relationship is enough to answer questions that quiz you about these three items.

Why do P and S not have a relationship?

It would be similar to why Z and K do not have a relationship. For example, If I now drank my coffee before I ate a banana or toast. That does not tell me anything about whether I eat banana first or toast. Having a grasp of the fact that they do not have relationship is again enough to know that either banana or toast could be eaten before each other. But that doesn't mean I have to write that down to know that.

Keep practicing and forcing yourself to understand the relationships without writing each and every possible sequence out. I definitely recommend doing the full core-curriculum from 7sage. There are amazing drills that JY has created to help you out with that.

• Alum Member 🍌🍌
8700 karma

Hello, once you have a master chain indicating the relationships, this is our working substitute for writing out every possibility. We simply do not have enough time to write out every possibility on a game like this. Sometimes, we do have that privilege: when for instance the gameboard breaks down to 3 or 4 game boards. This is called "splitting." For more on this, please see this webinar:
https://7sage.com/webinar/splitting-boards/

Looking over the rules and the work you have:
KZJMNOPS
KZJMNOSP
are not valid constructions. Can you tell me why?

The other questions you reference can be answered by appealing to the idea that sometimes, our rules will indicate relationships between certain variables but not between others. Other times there are inherent or "trivial" inferences between variables.

Imagine this was a race, and I tell you that N finished before O and P. Then I tell you that K finished before N. That places K before N which places K before O and P. This is an idea that takes just a little to get used to. It is something we deal with throughout our everyday experience of the world. So I live in upstate New York. If I tell you that today the weather was warmer in Binghamton, New York than it was in Anchorage Alaska, but it was warmer in El Paso Texas than it was in Binghamton New York, we can draw an inference from that information that it was warmer in El Paso Texas than it was in Anchorage Alaska.

• Alum Member 🍌🍌
8700 karma

The same can be said of height. I can say my brother is taller than me, but my cousin is taller than my brother. Which makes my cousin taller than me. I do believe that there is a deeper level we can go here when faced with these sequencing scenarios, one in which we should attempt to make second nature. Let me know if the above is clear and we will continue this discussion in the comments.

David

• Alum Member
edited December 2017 1617 karma

No. Don't write out all possibilities. Imagine how much time that would waste on the real exam! The rules can be mapped like this:
Z---M
....../
J--K--N--O--P
...... \
.........S
So by using this, you'll actually see that your sequences KZJMNOPS and KZJMNOSP can't happen because J isn't before K. Z and K have a relationship only so far as they have to be before M. J and P have a relationship because you follow the lines: "J must be before K which is before N which is before O which is before P." There's literally no world where J is not before P.

Just follow the lines down, never back. Let's take J, K, M, and Z. The rules say: "K is before M (and N), Z is before M, J is before K. If you map that, you get:
Z---M
....../
J--K

So look at all the possibilities, keeping the rules in mind. JKZM, JZKM, ZJKM. Only three worlds!

• Free Trial Member
edited December 2017 3072 karma

"Combine" rules in sequencing games.

Rules:
1. A-B
2. B-C

These two rules can be combined and more efficiently represented as:
A-B-C

In the trickier games, knowing individual sequences as they are, separate from the master "combination" sequence, can be important.

• Member
46 karma

Hi everyone. I can't really figure out how to reply to each one of you individually, so thank you all for the comments. Basically, what you all are saying is K and Z are not related since all we know is that they both come before M. And thank y'all for reminding me that anything that doesn't have J before K is incorrect. You are right, those would not be valid....I forgot the rules ha ha....
I will construct this master chain and combine from now on.

• Member
46 karma

Yes David, your explanations were very clear. Thank you so much!
-Amanda