Thoughts re timed and untimed PT

tanes256

Hey, all. I was recently having a convo with someone else studying for the test. The convo was regarding timed and untimed scores. I said that if one scores the same on a timed PT as on an untimed PT that indicates a lack in knowledge and fundamentals because untimed you have time to think out strategy and whatever else to get the correct answer but you still didn’t. The other person didn’t agree. What are your thoughts?

Alex

What if both your timed & untimed scores are a 180?

What if both your timed & untimed scores are a 170?

I think we would both agree that if your timed score is in the 170s that you don't lack knowledge or fundamentals. But those are pretty extreme cases, so what about a 165/165?

I pose these questions to make the point that context (the timed/untimed score) matters quite a bit when asking a question like this.

Generally speaking, most times when someone's timed and untimed PT scores are the same, there is room for improvement on the fundamentals. This is especially true when both of those scores are below the mid-160s. I think once you are scoring at or above a ~165 that your knowledge of the test and fundamentals are more or less solid. There are other reasons to miss questions untimed -- sometimes a certain LR question or RC passage wrecks us simply because they're designed to be super hard questions. Though, If you're missing LG questions untimed, I think that usually denotes a lack of fundamentals.

So, like so many other LSAT related questions, the answer is: it depends.

goingfor99th

It could be that the person in question lacks fundamental skills, or that they are simply uncomfortable with time pressure. The former is definitely more likely, though.

Most people are uncomfortable with time pressure at first, and that will usually manifest itself as a higher untimed score/lower timed score.

tanes256

@"Alex Divine" you’re right. I guess I should’ve specified that the score was a 155. I should’ve included more but I was being lazy trying not to write an essay. The BR score rarely goes beyond 160.

@goingfor99th time pressure and anxiety was also brought up. I guess my thought is that if you can’t get the correct answer untimed there’s an issue.

westcoastbestcoast

I agree with your points @tanes256 . What did the other person say to justify his points? I think thaf if you can't answer a question correctly with unlimited time, it means that you dont understand the question. It seems like common sense to me or maybe im overlooking something compelling that your friend has mentioned. I would even go so far as to believe that if you can answer a question right with unlimited time yet you get it wrong during the exam, you still lack the fundamentals. If your fundamentals and test taking mechanics were on point, questions you get right with unlimited time are those you should get right in a timed setting.

Alex

@tanes256 said:
@"Alex Divine" you’re right. I guess I should’ve specified that the score was a 155. I should’ve included more but I was being lazy trying not to write an essay. The BR score rarely goes beyond 160.

@goingfor99th time pressure and anxiety was also brought up. I guess my thought is that if you can’t get the correct answer untimed there’s an issue.

In that case, there's tons of improvement to make on fundamentals at that level! So I'm going to agree with your original assessment in your OP.

Ask your friend if they have no room for improvement of test fundamentals, then why are they missing 25% of the test even untimed?

tanes256

@westcoastbestcoast he brought up test anxiety and not being comfortable under timing conditions. I get that both of those could be factors but those factors don’t come into play with untimed PT. I also get there are curvebreakers designed to trip you up so that’s always a factor. His PT scores at the moment are normally between 150-157. He figured he’d get a 151-153 on this December test and he scored a 155. His BR scores rarely hit 160. I figure he doesn’t put much effort into BR but he says otherwise so my guess was that there’s an issue with fundamentals. If you perform no better without timing I’m not sure what the issue could be. If anything, I don’t really see anxiety nor timing pressure to be the issue because you performed the same under timed conditions.

tanes256

In that case, there's tons of improvement to make on fundamentals at that level! So I'm going to agree with your original assessment in your OP.

Ask your friend if they have no room for improvement of test fundamentals, then why are they missing 25% of the test even untimed?

I don’t think you were trying to be funny but that last bit was funny. Lol you’re right but I think I have to find a better way to say it to him though. He hasn’t been studying that long though so I think he still has a certain mentality about the test. The unlimited takes came at a bad time for him because I’m sure he’s gonna keep retaking. That’s just him.

Alex

@tanes256 said:

In that case, there's tons of improvement to make on fundamentals at that level! So I'm going to agree with your original assessment in your OP.

Ask your friend if they have no room for improvement of test fundamentals, then why are they missing 25% of the test even untimed?

I don’t think you were trying to be funny but that last bit was funny. Lol you’re right but I think I have to find a better way to say it to him though. He hasn’t been studying that long though so I think he still has a certain mentality about the test. The unlimited takes came at a bad time for him because I’m sure he’s gonna keep retaking. That’s just him.

Hahaha! Oh we all have friends like that