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The In/Out games are killing me

sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
in Logic Games 1501 karma

Brutally. Any advice? I'm just now learning them and just completed that part of the CC. They are just crushing my soul. Tonight I plan on reviewing the conditional logic exercises, anything else I should be doing? I cried, broke down today, brainstormed other professions, then got a hold of myself and realize that giving up is just not an option. I can and will own these asshole jerk questions. No offense to anybody that loves them.

Comments

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    3072 karma

    Which test and game number?

  • tringo335tringo335 Alum Member
    3674 karma

    If you are able to upgrade to Ultimate+ there is a LG foolproof bundle that if you complete can help master all logic games. Here is a link to a method a user named Pacifico used a while back. I plan on starting this next week as I just finished the CC.

    https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2737/logic-games-attack-strategy/p1

  • BinghamtonDaveBinghamtonDave Yearly Member 🍌🍌
    8658 karma

    In and out games are in my estimation the single greatest area where an understanding of conditional logic translates into real results. Knowing when conditional chains trigger vs when they are irrelevant is absolutely pivotal. Chaining up conditionals via contrapositives is also helpful. Keep track of every piece you are asked to place. A weakness on in and out games signals to me a possible weaknesses in your mastery of conditional logic.

    David

  • kimpg_66kimpg_66 Alum Member
    1617 karma

    Like all games, it's just gonna take times. Don't worry about timing right now. Even if you don't have ultimate+, there should still be some LG in the CC. Take a game, do it. Do it again. And again. Do it until you understand every inference and can go -0 in the suggested time

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    Yeah, I agree with the others. I'm thinking conditional logic is what you need to practice. Here are a few things to review:

    This one was crucial for me. I've had to really, really practice especially to remember how to walk a long chain backwards with contrapositives when a necessary is negated.
    https://7sage.com/lesson/chaining-conditional-statements-together/

    Basic, but very important - make sure your contrapositives are correct:
    https://7sage.com/lesson/contrapositive-mistakes/

    "Inclusive or" blew my brain open on the first reading, I'd never thought about "or" that way. But it is so, so critical in LG:
    https://7sage.com/lesson/why-is-or-so-confusing/

    The whole Advanced Logic section is of course super important too. I'd suggest re-visiting these pieces of the cc and then just foolproofing in/out games a bunch. If you just finished that part of the cc, you still have a ways to go! So don't stress about it too much right now. As you work your way through the cc, you're going to keep growing and getting more comfortable with everything. But specifically if in/out games are killer, it's probably most helpful to review lessons on conditional logic.

    Hope that helps!

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    edited January 2018 1501 karma

    This is near the end of the CC though. I kind of feel it could have been placed elsewhere (earlier in the curriculum) almost finished with the CC now. There's no more lessons from which to learn and improve, except by fool-proofing. Which I recently acquired all PTs, just need to scan the books and make copies, etc. So, I will be fool-proofing once I finish the CC. I need to go back and review the conditional logic lessons.

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    1501 karma

    @"Leah M B" said:
    Yeah, I agree with the others. I'm thinking conditional logic is what you need to practice. Here are a few things to review:

    This one was crucial for me. I've had to really, really practice especially to remember how to walk a long chain backwards with contrapositives when a necessary is negated.
    https://7sage.com/lesson/chaining-conditional-statements-together/

    Basic, but very important - make sure your contrapositives are correct:
    https://7sage.com/lesson/contrapositive-mistakes/

    "Inclusive or" blew my brain open on the first reading, I'd never thought about "or" that way. But it is so, so critical in LG:
    https://7sage.com/lesson/why-is-or-so-confusing/

    The whole Advanced Logic section is of course super important too. I'd suggest re-visiting these pieces of the cc and then just foolproofing in/out games a bunch. If you just finished that part of the cc, you still have a ways to go! So don't stress about it too much right now. As you work your way through the cc, you're going to keep growing and getting more comfortable with everything. But specifically if in/out games are killer, it's probably most helpful to review lessons on conditional logic.

    Hope that helps!

    Very helpful. Thank you for the links!

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    1501 karma

    Should I finish the remaining couple of sections left in the CC and then go back and review what stumped me?

  • akistotleakistotle Member 🍌🍌
    9345 karma

    Could you tell us specific examples of In/Out Games lessons that you didn't understand? If you can, I think we can figure out what you should review more specifically.

  • NotMyNameNotMyName Alum Member Sage
    5320 karma

    This is near the end of the CC though. I kind of feel it could have been placed elsewhere (earlier in the curriculum) almost finished with the CC now. There's no more lessons from which to learn and improve, except by fool-proofing. Which I recently acquired all PTs, just need to scan the books and make copies, etc. So, I will be fool-proofing once I finish the CC. I need to go back and review the conditional logic lessons.

    That's ok. The cc for logic games is more about exposure in my opinion. Foolproofing is where all the learning actually happens for most students.

    One inference to keep in mind during in/out games is marking a space in an 'out' spot for a not-both rule and keeping track of your 'out' spots because once they are full, you get to put everything else in the 'in' group.

    Keep at it!

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:
    Should I finish the remaining couple of sections left in the CC and then go back and review what stumped me?

    Yes. I think this is a good approach. I used to suck at in-out-games. Then I got better, but was still painfully slow. Now they're my best game type. I love them!

    The only thing it takes is getting comfortable with conditional logic. Know all of your rules, be able to chain up conditional statements, and know when the rules trigger vs. when they fall away. Fill in not both rules/or rules in your game board, and know when one group fills up, the rest go into the other group.

    Just keep doing the one(s) that give you trouble over and over. You will get them :smile:

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    1501 karma

    One that struck me as difficult was PT26.S1.G4.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:
    One that struck me as difficult was PT26.S1.G4.

    So, with 26.S1.G4 it is really more of hybrid game: double layer-sequencing/grouping game. Not an in-out-game.

    What rules/inferences/questions did you find challenging?

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    edited January 2018 1501 karma

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:
    One that struck me as difficult was PT26.S1.G4.

    So, with 26.S1.G4 it is really more of hybrid game: double layer-sequencing/grouping game. Not an in-out-game.

    What rules/inferences/questions did you find challenging?

    It is in the CC labeled as "in/out game w/sub-category"

    So I wonder if diagramming it as an in/out is inappropriate? I struggled diagramming it (with the objective to diagram it as an in/out) and then the "chairperson" questions killed me.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    edited January 2018 23929 karma

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:
    One that struck me as difficult was PT26.S1.G4.

    So, with 26.S1.G4 it is really more of hybrid game: double layer-sequencing/grouping game. Not an in-out-game.

    What rules/inferences/questions did you find challenging?

    It is in the CC labeled as "in/out game w/sub-category"

    So I wonder if diagramming it as an in/out is inappropriate? I struggled diagramming it (with the objective to diagram it as an in/out) and then the "chairperson" questions killed me.

    Oh gosh! I fudged up and was looking at 26.1.1 -- the game with the students.

    https://7sage.com/lsat_explanations/lsat-26-section-1-game-4/

    I'll check it out on my lunch break and get back to you.

    You're on the right track though treating it as an in-out-game w/ sub categories!

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    1501 karma

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:

    @"Alex Divine" said:

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:
    One that struck me as difficult was PT26.S1.G4.

    So, with 26.S1.G4 it is really more of hybrid game: double layer-sequencing/grouping game. Not an in-out-game.

    What rules/inferences/questions did you find challenging?

    It is in the CC labeled as "in/out game w/sub-category"

    So I wonder if diagramming it as an in/out is inappropriate? I struggled diagramming it (with the objective to diagram it as an in/out) and then the "chairperson" questions killed me.

    Oh gosh! I fudged up and was looking at 26.1.1 -- the game with the students.

    https://7sage.com/lsat_explanations/lsat-26-section-1-game-4/

    I'll check it out on my lunch break and get back to you.

    You're on the right track though treating it as an in-out-game w/ sub categories!

    Thanks!

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    edited January 2018 3072 karma

    PT26 G4 is a really tough game.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/1FzncvHpfbncNy4F3

    I didn't get the board format right on the first try. The conditional chain inferences were the key to this game for me.

  • AlexAlex Alum Member
    23929 karma

    @goingfor99th said:
    PT26 G4 is a really tough game.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/1FzncvHpfbncNy4F3

    I didn't get the board format right on the first try. The conditional chain inferences were the key to this game for me.

    @"sbc.mom_3x" @goingfor99th nailed it! All about being able to create and read the conditional chain of inferences. It is a tough game, though, so don't beat yourself if you're not getting it right away.

    I would recommend drilling easier in-and-out games first and get really good at the basics.

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    edited January 2018 3072 karma

    Here's a list of some good In/Out and Two-Value System practice games:
    PT 24 G4 (really useful inference: https://photos.app.goo.gl/VJUJvV7Hntt11LdW2)
    PT 40 G4
    PT 41 G3
    PT42 G1
    PT 45 G3
    PT 47 G2
    PT 48 G1
    PT 49 G3 ("waterfall" strategy works well here)
    PT 50 G2 ('improvised out group,' large out group)
    PT 51 G1 (unique two-value system game)
    PT 52 G2 (tri-group game with a lot of conditional logic)
    PT 54 G1 (tricky conditional logic on this game)
    PT 60 G4 (really tricky conditional logic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/MoWZkD6AYT5uZsB93)

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    edited January 2018 3072 karma

    For a particularly challenging In/Out game, see PT 57 G3 (Dinosaur game).

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Member
    3072 karma

    both can be out, but not in:
    A -> /B
    B -> /A

    both can be in, but not out:
    /A -> B
    /B -> A

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    Oh gosh I just looked up 26.1.4. I hate that game! Haha. It definitely is in/out w/sub categories, but I think also with a twist (those 1st and 2nd years and chairperson designations). It's super obnoxious and difficult. I've done this one so many times! It sucks. This is a good example of a game to foolproof though. It's so dang tough but there's a lot to learn though. Watch JY's explanation video and repeat, repeat, repeat. You're still working through the cc, don't beat yourself up for things being difficult! It gets easier with time. I can do this one now and around the target time, but it took work to get there. You got this!

  • akistotleakistotle Member 🍌🍌
    9345 karma

    Yea PT26.S1.Game 4 is a difficult In/Out game. I've done this so many times! (same, @"Leah M B"!) Let us know if there's any part of JY's video that you don't understand.

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    @akistotle said:
    Yea PT26.S1.Game 4 is a difficult In/Out game. I've done this so many times! (same, @"Leah M B"!) Let us know if there's any part of JY's video that you don't understand.

    I was going to try to be helpful and work through it myself and send some notes, but couldn't muster up the energy to do that one again. Hahaha. I laid out the game board and then just thought... nah can't.

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    1501 karma

    I think I've gotten that one. Going to check out the other ones referenced above. I started w/1 of the 7sage approved tutors... we worked on that one today. I understand it now and have been FPing it this evening. I just don't like that damn chairperson.

  • akistotleakistotle Member 🍌🍌
    9345 karma

    @"sbc.mom_3x" said:
    I think I've gotten that one. Going to check out the other ones referenced above. I started w/1 of the 7sage approved tutors... we worked on that one today. I understand it now and have been FPing it this evening. I just don't like that damn chairperson.

    Glad you found the right tutor!

  • sbc.mom_3xsbc.mom_3x Alum Member
    1501 karma

    You guys are all so helpful. Thank you so much for the replies. I love 7sage's community. Glad to know I was struggling on an LG that was difficult. It seriously blew my mind yesterday. The chairperson part killed me. I did some reviewing last night of conditional logic and bi-conditionals. It's so great to be able to go back and review it, then apply it, then finally seeing things go together like a puzzle.

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