Wait lists, Scholarships, or Retake

Dillon PG

Hey guys,

I'm stressed over this decision. I just want to hear opinions. I took the LSAT twice. 156 and 167. The rest of my credentials are good, but it looks like it is true that the LSAT is the most important factor.

I'm wait listed at multiple T14 schools. I've gotten everything from Full tuition at regional schools to 60k scholarship at a T25 school. However, even with full tuition there is quite a lot of debt from living expenses.

I'm really nervous about the job market. I think I want to work in a big law firm. It's possible with some of the schools that I got into, but it also comes with a load of debt and still not fantastic chances. I think that the Law School prep can help me get good grades, but it is no guarantee. Should I risk trying to get top 15% or just retake the LSAT?

Should I retake the LSAT if I am confident I can score 172+? I did score in the 170's a few times right before I took the real thing, and I know that test day was not my best.

I don't want to delay going to law school, but I also don't want to look back 3 years from now and wish I went to a t14 school with less debt. And the way everything is going, it looks like the coming years are going to be rough on law schools, students, and the job market.

What do you guys think?

Nilesh S

@"Dillon PG" I feel ya man... got a 167 myself... going to GULC... did you apply really late in the cycle? a 167 can get you into the lower T14... I HAD to go (or decide not to go at all) this year and so I'm not retaking... but had I the buffer of time, I would have retaken... the thought of what would have happened if I had enough time to attempt those last 7 questions on the RC section will haunt me for a LOOOOONG time... and if you feel you can do better, don't think about it... retake... there has never been more value in retaking... as schools only have to submit your highest LSAT score for ranking purposes... and money is a big thing... that said with your score, also apply early to the T14 this coming season and you may be pleasantly surprised. You owe it to yourself to go to the best school possible.

Dillon PG

@"Nilesh S"
First of all Congratulations!

Waitlisted at GULC and Cornell, which also tells me above them is unlikely... did they give you any money? And I started sending applications in early January, so pretty late compared to a lot of people. Took the test in December.

I'm debating being frank with some of these top 30 schools and saying "I'm on the edge between a retake or going for full tuition. I can't afford your $60,000 a year tuition with 4% raise every year weighed against the abysmal job prospects." But of course phrased more politely.

I'm pretty confident that I can score higher. Taking it in December was a must as I was scoring 172's on PT's. But I recognized even then another month would have helped significantly.

So you say retake... I can't deny the family and friends pressure is there but I know that retaking gives me the best shot at t14 with money and ultimately biglaw.

Nilesh S

@"Dillon PG" Thank so much... negotiating for money with GULC... lets see what happens... I took Dec as well... sent mine out then too... maybe a little earlier would have been better... I would actually love to take it again but there are some pressures along with family and friends... plus I'm an international student in the US and there some issues related to this... BUT that said... since yours is a 'normal' (for lack of a better term) case... I would ALWAYS err on the side of retaking... want big law go to a T14 + TeVaUCLA for a good shot at the same (some other uni's BU, BC, ND etc. will still offer you decent big law prospects) but go to the BEST school you can go to... you owe it to yourself... plus sometime into biglaw or even into law school, you might feel as if you don't want to practice any more but want to go into academia... T14 (especially top 6) + Tex-UCLA give you the best shot at that.

emli1000

It seems like you know that a re-take would be the best option. But if you're not pressed for time I would suggest that you wait to retake and that you apply early the next cycle.

jdawg113

I vote retake in June(unless you feel your absolute best would be Oct... but its too early to know that atm) Its real late in the cycle and in general even with same numbers you probably have better options next cycle so with pushing back theres no reason to not go for a retake and get that score that will push you into the schools you want

Dillon PG

@"Nilesh S" Yea, I did get into BC with money, but it still ends up being quite a large debt after 3 years. My big thing right now is I don't mind taking on the debt with decent job prospects at the end, but the truth is it is GRIM out there.
I think I would love biglaw but you're right, I wouldn't mind having the option to go into academia just in case.
@emli1000 @jdawg113
Do you really think applying in January caused me great harm in this application cycle? I didn't realize that was considered very late.

Should I have any concern about law schools not liking that I was admitted to them but didn't go without the full ride(t25)? Or that I was previously denied and reapplied (t10 school)? Or that I took the LSAT a third time? Or that I graduated undergrad in 2013?
How much difference would a 170 cause? 172? 175? 180?
This time I think I'll be aiming for the 180 or close to it since I have the fundamentals established and the time to hone the rest. I feel like that's the best way I can make a statement that I needed to retake this test and I deserve to be in t14.

I'll negotiate a little more with the schools, mull it over, and then decide whether to go or retake...

Nilesh S

@"Dillon PG" indeed I think you should retake... by decent prospects from the BC/BU/ND pool of schools I mean graduate top quarter of your class... OR make law review and you will get that job... and I would qualify grim by saying that while employment isn't up to pre-recession numbers (and won't be for a while), things are picking up... my landord is a lawyer who works at a small firm at Syracuse... he was saying that his firm is hiring... biglaw is coming to SU to hire again (and that is saying something given SU's lower T2 status) - plus he also knows a lot of people in biglaw at NY and he says their firms are hiring. Also you should not worry about what T25 schools with think... at this point of time, you are in a position of power vis a vis law schools... schools specialty in the T25 range are attracting applicants bigtime... and just because you turned them down this year, does not preclude them from making you an offer next year - though what you may experience is yield protection in that - if schools think that you are way above their margins and are treating them like safety options, and you wouldn't go there, they will either not make you an offer or place you on hold. Take American, who didn't make offers a couple of years back to anyone above a 166. That said, if you are on the waitlist, and you send the school a letter of interest, they will take you with schol. Also the range that you are in, EVERY LSAT point makes a difference so if you think you even get a 169, I would try for it... and points further make a difference if you don't have a stellar GPA coz the LSAT can compensate for that. I'd say... if you think yo ucan make it... go for it.

jdawg113

soooo yeah that doesn't matter lol school's may start to care if you applied 2 years in a row and negotiated and then withdrew (and thats a maybe not even) but they really won't care that you decided to pull out and wait another cycle. The schools you've been accepted to/WL/or rejected won't really consider what the situation was last year. and either way there would be no reason to look down on someone who decided to push further and do better and decide to go to their school instead of a lower teir school.

Yes every point matters, the difference between 167 and 170 is plenty and will (most likely) mean the difference between a WL and straight accept and even a reject vs acceptance (of course depends a bit on other factors) the higher the #s the more schools open up to you and the more $ from schools that are already open.

and finally I wouldn't say it "hurt" you really, it is just late in the cycle... it is kind of unpredictable especially with the changes that have been going on (lower # of test takers) but I do think you have a better chance and a better deal applying earlier on... if for nothing else but not time crunched and being able to take the time to wait on other offers and properly negotiate scholly $

Nilesh S

That is for sure... see the fact of the matter is that admissions is a rolling process... Schools have more seats to fill early on in the process... so your chances with a 167 are higher earlier in the cycle say if you had all your apps in by thanksgiving (rule of thumb)... apply this early and most of the T14 from 14 - 7 ought to be open to you depending on your GPA. Also at this point of time, law school is a buyers market so every point on the retake means extra money. Never has retaking been a more attractive option...and the schools 167 - Georgetown, Cornell, Mich - 169 Chicago/NYU 172 - good for almost all with a semi-solid shot at Yale... 175 pretty much par for the course everywhere.

Dillon PG

@jdawg113 @"Nilesh S"

Leaning heavily towards a retake. I talked with my partner about this today. I tried to be honest with myself... if I retook the test would I be able to improve upon the 167? Yup. I can. And when you put it like that, can I score at least a 168 or 169? Yup. But I think I won't settle for anything less than over 170. I had a really bad test day and my score was good considering the distractions.

Over $150k debt for BC and GWU is just too big a risk.

Only thing I am slightly nervous about is I did go through quite a large amount of PT's. So I will have to be careful about rationing the remaining PT's I didn't take.

Also, will law schools look down upon me for being not employed or underemployed while studying for this test?

Nilesh S

No... just be frank about it... say that you were on a sabbatical from work studying for the test if at all you want to address it... and don't worry about the freshness of PTs... just retake the old ones... retaking the old PTs is highly underrated... sure save the ones that you have for the few weeks before the test but Graeme Blake said that he got better at the LSAT but doing tests 29 - 38 again... and check out this video for further info on this:

jdawg113

I mean probably not though I would shoot for a PT job or something and if you can turn it FT after the retake that would be awesome (but like a decent job, obvi not like fast food or something) but people do have stuff happening and responsibilities that cause someone to not work so I wouldn't worry too much

Dillon PG

@"Nilesh S" @jdawg113

Yea, I'll redo a PT soon to see what my score is like 4 months since the actual test.

I've got a real shot of getting off the waitlist at Cornell. My numbers stack up well. Still retake? Or does it become a harder choice then?

I look at GWU, which is one of the schools I got into with money. Am I being foolish waiting another year? Or am I being foolish mailing myself a bill for $250,000 3 years later?

I know this thread has answered these questions. I think I should retake. But it's hard walking away from these offers. I actually enjoy studying the LSAT because it is challenging and a very accurate measure of a skill level (the skill of taking the LSAT). But I also don't like wasting time. I also don't like wasting money.

I'll need to keep thinking about this. I've got time before deposits are due.

Nilesh S

Of course you should retake... study real hard... it is a capital mistake to theorise in advance of the facts... yes you are at Cornell's median... and personally I think you have a good shot at GULC too (are you on their preferred waitlist or regular waitlist? ) but nobody can get into the minds of the admissions committees... unless you have a compelling need to go this year, then get into the best school you can... you've already answered a lot of your own queries above... do a cost benefit analysis.. what do you lose by not going this year? a few months when you prep for this test... maybe some stress because you're not working... what more? the the difference between employment prospects from a GW and even a lower t14+TeVaUCLA is staggering... this is Chicago law prof Brian Leiter's report from a year and a few months ago and while @jdawg113 has pointed out (and I agree with him) the data is a year plus old (2013), not much has changed drastically and certainly the ratios of employment outcomes between the schools have not changed significantly: http://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2013/12/ranking-law-schools-by-elite-employment-outcomes

Nilesh S

Also if you think its hard walking away from these offers, I walked away from $75K + more at UCI (they were willing to stop just short of full tuition) and $60K (negotiable) from BU... hadn't approached BC and am sure if I had, they would have thrown generous money too... I waited a YEAR (though its safe to say I had the buffer of a non-binding deferred offer with scholarship intact from UCI so that made it a lot easier - if they had made the offer binding, I would have refused them then and there) before getting into a T14. So I was in your shoes too...

Dillon PG

@"Nilesh S" based of that I'd be better off at BC. They gave me75k compared to GWU with the 60k. I also got 90k from WUSTL, but I'm not sure I want to practice in that region.

Do you think any of them would consider a deferral?

Nilesh S

They would all do that... but your deferral would be binding. I would not take that deal... with a 167 alone you could do better.

Dillon PG

@"Nilesh S" @jdawg113 Just took my first PT since the test on the 6th of December. Scored a 167, lol. Going to blind review it now.

So it doesn't look like I lost much in 3+ months of no studying, and I already know some of the mistakes I made. Had my most problems for sure with LG, which makes sense since it's the most like an actual game and requires practice. But that's awesome because I know how easy it is to get LG perfect compared to the rest of the sections.

172+ with an early application and more individualised personal statements for the top schools will probably give me better chances than what I had this time. Do you think applying to some of these schools two years in a row will help? I can't imagine it hurting at least.

I'll get back to the grind and hopefully I can get a 172+ and finally put the LSAT behind me in June.

Nilesh S

Awesome!!!... look forward to seeing you on the other side @"Dillon PG" It will have no bearing apart from the fact that it will show them that you are really considering them. That would be a positive imo.