In a slump =(

bSM45LSAT

I've been really delaying making this thread, partially in hopes that I would start hitting the scores I need to soon, and wouldn't need to basically rant.

I started studying in May, finished the core curriculum + all Cambridge packets in 2months, and July 8th I started doing Practice Tests. I've done 8 in total, I do 3 a week, M, W, and F, mainly in accordance with my local university library's schedule. I blind review the lsats the entire day after, so on Tuesdays, and Thursday, and on the weekends I take it a little easier and blind review half day on Sat and Sun. I should mention that my BR scores are never much higher, they're always around 161, which worries me as time is clearly not the problem. I generally catch my silly mistakes in BR, but reading LR I almost always just go with my original answers.

I never took a diagnostic as I didn't want to discourage myself by getting a low score, and also didn't want to do LG without having proper diagramming skills. If I had to guess, I would say it would be pretty low, probably 140s, but I guess I'll never know.

Unlike most of the people on 7Sage, I'm from Canada, and here all you need to get into a vast majority of the schools, even some of the best ones is an LSAT score of 160+, assuming you have a stellar GPA, which I'm happy to say I have. For my particular school of choice, a 162 on the LSAT would guarantee me a spot according to the index score used for this year, and 160 would most likely get me in off the waiting list.

Now getting to the rant part, I'm stuck in a slump. My last 5 LSAT scores have been: 159, 157, 156, 158, and today was 157. The corresponding raw scores were 74, 69, 71, 70, and 73.

According to the analytics I have the most difficulty with Flaw/Descriptive weakening questions, and Law passages (the irony :L).

LG is my strongest section, I usually go -3 and it's usually due to either not having enough time or misreading some rules. RC is weird for me, there are days like today, where I went 20/26, and others where I go 18/28. LR is another weird one, it's all over the place. Average is 66%, usually 17/25, but some days I go 20/25, and today oddly enough I went 19/25, and 15/26.

I've been reading the Trainer, and am on Chapter 10, but stopped after I started taking PTs, will get back to it asap, and try to make sure I read one chapter everyday.

So sorry for this loooooooong background story, but I need help getting out of this slump and I'm so sick of coming home and marking my LSATs only to find out I keep getting 157ish. I'm hoping maybe as long as I keep at it, I'll eventually just increase my score, but I keep thinking like no matter what I do I always end up at the same score. Like days where I rock LG and RC, I mess up LR, and other days I rock LR and mess up RC.

Is there any other material I should get, like potentially read through the Manhattan LR, or go back and review 7Sage core lessons?

By Oct I need to get 160+, and I would even be happy with literally just getting 160, but I'm worried as people say the later tests are even harder, and if I'm scoring 157 on these earlier, apparently easier tests, I don't want to know what will happen later on. Which is why I think I'm going to start jumping around, I've done PTs 39-46 so far, and I think I should do 60s next week?

Anyway, thanks for reading, and I apologize again for making this exceptionally long.

* Oh and regarding time, I generally haven't had a problem with not finishing sections on time, that being said I don't have extra but I somehow always seem to just finish before time runs out, don't get any time leftover to go back to any questions, but when I go through questions I usually pick one without the intention of having to come back.

Pacifico

Just keep plowing through the Trainer and keep PTing as you get later in the book, it's really great for flaws so it should help. Try and get on some group BR calls so you can have the opportunity to review the whole test in more depth.

goalis180

I am not in my PTing phase yet so my insight will be limited. Firstly, how are you BRing? some people think that reassuring themselves their answer is right is BRing, and IT IS NOT. For every answer you must be certain of incorrect answers, and for what reason, as well as why the correct answer is correct with a corresponding reason. Second, there was a post on this forum, if I recall, where someone claimed they were making "silly" mistakes, and the members responded by bringing to his attention that although he might think they are "silly" mistakes, they could be traps set to force you to make this "silly" mistake which truly means you are falling for traps, not making silly mistakes. Since you already know your weakness, I recommend purchasing the Cambridge Drill Packet for flaw/descriptive weakening and drill your brains out. As for RC, Manhattan prep, and Mike Kim's The Trainer are both excellent sources for conquering RC. RC is more about learning to read for structure, and know when specific things are important, which both previously mentioned materials assist you to do. Other than that, I would just say continue to PT, and you will get better.

harrismegan

I'm from Canada too!! Which province do you live in?
I think, from what I can see, you might be doing too many prep tests. You said you're doing them..... M/W/F and doing a full day of blind review, which means M, W, F are exams, T, TH, and S are blind review, but.... when are you doing the actual studying portion of your studying?
I think it would be best to maybe lesson the prep tests to two a week, do a good blind review, and use some time to actually review your weaker concepts/drill questions/increase your accuracy.

Just my opinion though! If you're in Alberta (Edmonton) I would LOVE to set up time with you to meet/review questions/PT!

guitarnara

I am also from Canada and I am in a similar situation. I have a good undergrad GPA which is up in the 75th percentile for most Canadian law schools and I need a 160+. I have taken 8 PTs so far and they've mostly been in the 158-160 area with 168-169 BR. I'd also be interested to know what I could do in the next 2 months to prepare for the Oct exam. I totally get ya..

Pacifico

This message is for all Canadians: If you only need a 160, just keep PTing and build up your analytics, drill the problem areas, and make sure your LG skills are on point... that is all.

Ben Terry

RC is my strongest section, and I would suggest the following. As J.Y. explains in the videos, although it is the hardest section to improve, there are ways. Reading periodicals (as J.Y. suggests) like The Economist/Financial Times of London, The New Yorker or even policy papers from think tanks(Brookings, CATO, CFR) - also, as a Humanities/English major, the importance of active reading, identifying the salient themes, and weeding through the unnecessary details as you go along through a passage is really crucial so you have as much time possible with the questions. Hope this helps.

emli1000

Read the flaw section in the trainer! It helped me out a lot! I used to hate flaw question types. Now they're my favorite! Also, when you BR your PT go back to the course and review any lessons in LR that you may have difficulties with.

bSM45LSAT

Wow, thanks for all the replies! Also great to see other Canadians on here, I'll msg you as I love seeing where everyone is planning on going and how they're prepping!

Also regarding BR, I go through the entire questions again, not just the ones I circled, and I'm usually stuck on the same questions as I was during the actual test, and I still choose the same answers I did, as even with the unlimited time I can't decide between ACs.

@harrismegan I really do agree with you, and I'd love to do just 2 prep tests a week, as I think I could BR maybe not better, but at least with less tension on having to finish in the day. The problem is I want to do prep tests 39-74, and in order to get them all done I have to do 3 a week, especially since School starts up in September and I'll have to limit to 2/week then.

The thing that kinda gets me down is the amount of times I come home from doing a prep test thinking I rocked it, must have hit over 160, then come home and the same old 158 nonsense. I usually BR logic games the same night and I catch the silly 2-3 mistakes I ever make, and think that wow if I hadn't messed up here I could've hit 160, but in reality those mistakes were most likely purposely caused by LSAT writers/time constraints so hard to improve from them.

I think I just have to keep going, keep PTing, reading trainer. I can't drill my weaknesses as I already did all the Cambridge sets (I really should've saved them).

Oh one specific question I had was I just did PT 46 today, what does everyone think I should do next week? I'm debating jumping up to PT 60 just to see how it is.

Matt1234567

Woot representing Canada!!
If you ever want a partner to BR with, I'm down, man. I was in the same boat as you, and just taking time off from PT and just drilling and really focusing on my mistakes has helped me tremendously.

Pacifico

I'm a fan of jumping around to get a taste for the variations in the newer ones. I would also stress quality over quantity when it comes to PTs. Yes you want to do as many as possible, but that doesn't mean you should be rushing through them in order to get 35 of them in. 20 timed PTs with a rigorous BR will almost always be better for you than 35 timed PTs on too short a timeline with poor BR and possible burnout.

notwilliamwallace

Canadian here as well, from the land of the great ex-mayor Rob Ford.

@bSM45LSAT , maybe you already know this info, but McGill doesn't require LSAT as part of the application. If you have an amazing undergrad GPA, awesome ECs and letters of recommendation, you have a good chance of getting in. I am going to assume that you already have all of that. The only other thing required, I believe, is your ability to speak French. If yes, then you have a solid chance of getting in. McGill has an amazing law school along with the cheapest tuition amongst common law schools ($6,500 I think).

In any case, there are still two months till Oct test and I'm sure your scores will improve between now and then if you keep on drilling. You got this, my friend.

DumbHollywoodActor

@bSM45LSAT Based on your BR difficulties, it sounds as if your fundamentals aren’t completely solid. I wouldn’t do more than 1 PT per week until you can easily BR above 170. I’d also look at other resources like LSAT Trainer or Manhattan for further explanations of the fundamental skills. I would even suggest writing or typing out your reasoning for every question that you have a shred of doubt about. Do an open book BR even. Get your fundies down, then you can do the PT-BR-repeat cycle. Quality first, then quantity.

c.janson35

I may have a different view than some others, so I thought I would share. I think you should definitely keep going with 2-3 PTs per week as I believe it's the best way to start making gains in your scores. You've been over the core curriculum and the packets, and now it's time to put those skills to work. Don't get me wrong, you should definitely do a top-notch BR for these tests, but you have to start getting into the rhythm of testing conditions and ensuring that the skills you've picked up from the curriculum are transferrable to the real test.

I think that's the only place I would disagree with @DumbHollywoodActor, and find the rest of the advice to be really really good. The idea to do an open book BR is one I haven't heard, and I really like that idea, as well as writing out explanations for wrong answer choices. I think if you combine these two methods you could really start seeing some gainz for dayzz.

I imagine this approach would play put something like this:

Take a PT, circle every question that you are not literally 100% sure on. If you are scoring a 161 BR right now, this should honestly be the bulk of the questions. Don't score your test.

During BR, go through each question you are unsure about and explain why each answer is wrong. Concretely. Imagine explaining the test to someone who has never seen the LSAT and is depending solely on your explanations to learn it. Don't move on until you can explain for each question why an answer is correct/incorrect.

Here's where the open book part comes in: check your reasoning right away against explanations some place else. Does you reasoning match? If it does, good stuff. If not, why not? What can you specifically learn from failing to articulate the correct explanation? What was wrong with your thought process that led you down this incorrect path, and how can you avoid misinterpreting the question/choice the next time? Did you correctly identify the conclusion/premises? Did you identify the flaw and can you explain the flaw to someone else? Was you approach to answering the question type the most efficient way possible? Did you fail to spot a term shift? Once you'be completed this process for one question, it's time to do it all over again for the next. And hopefully by continually checking your reasoning with other explanations you can start to gain momentum throuhout the section.

You can then file away these questions/explanations and look back at them in a week or so, making sure that you can continually build on the correct thought processes that you are spending time to develop in the BR.

The other resources @DumbHollywoodActor mentioned are very useful too, and I would definitely visit/re-visit the flaw chapters in the Trainer. I think it's great how this is the first skill The Trainer develops because it pays dividends on the rest of the test. Spotting the flaw is quite possibly the most foundational skill, and if not, then it is near the top. The Trainer's introduction to flaw-seeking is great and the drills provided can take you a long way.

It's really hard to build/perfect new skills, and that's what you are continuously striving to do with your studies. Don't fret if it takes longer than you anticipated.

Good luck!

DumbHollywoodActor

@c.janson35 Appreciate the props. I actually typed out explanations for my first 5 PTs until I reached a 175 BR score. Now, I’m in the Pt-BR-repeat phase and I can’t possibly find the time to type out the explanations for every problem. I think you’ll find that if you do type out the explanations and start reading other material, continuing to do 3 timed tests per week will lead to burnout. Then again, I’m 38. Maybe a 22 year old could manage it, but I think it would lead to undesired consequences.

c.janson35

@dumbhollywoodactor yea I would say 5 PT of going through that process is probably enough to get on the right track, give or take. After that, the normal PT-BR cycle is what I would do also.

bSM45LSAT

@shiv.tomer1 said:
maybe you already know this info, but McGill doesn't require LSAT as part of the application. If you have an amazing undergrad GPA, awesome ECs and letters of recommendation, you have a good chance of getting in. I am going to assume that you already have all of that. The only other thing required, I believe, is your ability to speak French. If yes, then you have a solid chance of getting in. McGill has an amazing law school along with the cheapest tuition amongst common law schools ($6,500 I think).

Yeah I've heard about McGill and it seems like an awesome school, but it's too far away for me, I'm from BC. Looking to go to a law school preferably within BC or AB.

That being said, what I score in Oct on the LAST will play a huge role in whether I have the luxury to consider distance a determinant in school preference!

LSATisland

I see we are having a Canadian meeting here. Good luck @bSM45LSAT Hope your scores improve soon

nicole.hopkins

@bSM45LSAT said:
I generally catch my silly mistakes in BR, but reading LR I almost always just go with my original answers.

When I fully BR (meaning go through at least every circled question and every AC) I deliberately don't use my original test form. I want to wrangle with the questions afresh. In other words, I typically don't know for sure if I'm "changing" an answer. I find the added stress of "second-guessing myself" to be unfruitful. When I end up changing an answer (when I input into the BR fields and see I've made a change), I might return to the Q and consider why I thought the supposedly wrong AC was right.

nicole.hopkins

@DumbHollywoodActor said:
I actually typed out explanations for my first 5 PTs until I reached a 175 BR score.

The man. Right here.

nicole.hopkins

@DumbHollywoodActor said:
I think you’ll find that if you do type out the explanations and start reading other material, continuing to do 3 timed tests per week will lead to burnout.

Agreed. I've been teetering there. I've only been doing 3-a-weeks in order to get in the later tests. Very much looking forward to 2-a-weeks in August.

bSM45LSAT

Thanks for all your support guys, guess what? Did PT 58 today and got a 161. Saw my first comparative RC passage, and despite my initial reaction, I got 90% on RC, by far the highest I've ever gotten.

Surprisingly for me, games I went 16/23, I usually go -3 so this is slightly worrying, but for the moment I'm going to enjoy knowing that the barrier has been broken!!!!!!!!!

c.janson35

Nice dude! Breaking plateaus always feels great. And I have a feeling you'll come to look forward to the comparative passages; I find them easier in general than the others: quicker reads, more to work with, and the relationship between the passages is rarely opaque.

notwilliamwallace

@bSM45LSAT said:
Looking to go to a law school preferably within BC or AB.

Nice!! I'd love to go to a law school in BC. One of my coworkers moved from Ontario to BC to work there and he LOVES it. Also, BC has amazing law schools...Thompson Rivers University, Victoria, UBC are all awesome! But, I was actually looking at the youngest law school in Canada (Lakehead, which is in Thunder Bay, Ontario) and they say that you don't need to article after graduation anymore. You just go through a program that they have and pass the bar exam. Then, it's you versus the world!

Anyways, totally off topic. I read about your recent achievements and I'm happy for you. Keep up the great work man!

nicole.hopkins

@bSM45LSAT said:
Did PT 58 today and got a 161. Saw my first comparative RC passage, and despite my initial reaction, I got 90% on RC, by far the highest I've ever gotten.

Well, look at you! We look forward to having you on the call[s] this week

bSM45LSAT

@shiv.tomer1 said:
But, I was actually looking at the youngest law school in Canada (Lakehead, which is in Thunder Bay, Ontario) and they say that you don't need to article after graduation anymore. You just go through a program that they have and pass the bar exam. Then, it's you versus the world!

Wow that's incredible actually! That would save you like a year right? Damn.

Also I actually live where Thompson Rivers is haha, so I'm well aware of it, it's a new school, but it definitely has its benefits, the general community here is really nice and welcoming.

notwilliamwallace

@bSM45LSAT said:
That would save you like a year right? Damn.

I think articling takes about 10 months. The program at Lakehead takes about 4 months, I believe. But that's still a lot of time saved. Although, I would still prefer to article and gain experience rather than going Lakehead's route.

You're so lucky you live in such a beautiful community. TRU is up and coming and has won some very prestigious law competitions over established law schools like UBC and UVic. TRU law is definitely going to get more competitive over the years.

bSM45LSAT

@shiv.tomer1 said:
TRU law is definitely going to get more competitive over the years.

Oh definitely. I remember in first year TRU Law was extremely new, and I looked up the requirements, and this past year checked them out, it's insane how much they've jumped up.

eastring

Are you aiming to go to UBC? It's one of my top choices. I just broke 160 mark yesterday and have been making a slow progress since I started PTing(sigh).. hopefully I will reach 165+ soon!

bSM45LSAT

Not really tbh. I'd much rather prefer Victoria, but then again I think UBC and Toronto and both a little too intimidating to me, and even if I got the required LSAT scores to go there, I'd prefer going somewhere with a smaller community.

harrismegan

Let's all go to Victoriaaaaa!

eastring

@bSM45LSAT said:
even if I got the required LSAT scores to go there, I'd prefer going somewhere with a smaller community.

I live in Victoria, and if you're looking for a small knit community, you'll certainly enjoy it here. I'll be applying to UVIC as well but will mostly likely choose a school in a city over it (just because I spent too much time here haha).

bSM45LSAT

@harrismegan said:
Let's all go to Victoriaaaaa!

7Sage Party in Victoria! Who's down?

@eastring said:
I'll be applying to UVIC as well but will mostly likely choose a school in a city over it (just because I spent too much time here haha).

Oh definitely, I think I have to move out of my current town just to keep my sanity.

I'm glad this thread basically united all the Canadians! Haha

Matt1234567

My goal is University of Toronto, but it still have a long way to go. The avg LSAT score for Uft is 167 (CRAZY). I'm scoring in the low 160s, so hopefully by the time October rolls around I can gain a few more points to reach that pinnacle.

harrismegan

haha united all the Canadians indeed I've been waiting for a thread like this!!! I thought I was one of the only Canadians! Thank God I am not!

bSM45LSAT

Rather than making a new discussion I thought it might be easier to just post in this one, but after taking PT 59 today I'm a little idk, I need guidance.

Usually I've been finishing LR right on time, so today I tried to really push myself through the questions. This led me to kinda rapid speed through the questions, and anticipate answers; for the most part I was on a roll. I had 5min to spare the first LR, which has never happened before.

2nd LR was even more insane, I had 10 friggin minutes to spare. So I went back to all my circled questions and kind of sat and pondered them, but didn't end of changing anything, I had a feeling I would not trust my gut and mess up.

Results for LR today were exactly what I always get, -6 first LR, and -7 2nd LR. These scores are basically what I always have been getting on LR for the past like 5-6 PTs, but obviously in those PTs I finish JUST in time.

So now I'm kinda confused. I went into the analytics and it doesn't seem like these LRs are a lot easier than others for this test, so what could be the reason?

nicole.hopkins

@bSM45LSAT said:
so what could be the reason?

It sounds like you're trusting yourself more. That's good. It also sounds like you haven't mastered the traps yet. That comes with practice ... And honestly, the BR calls have helped me do this more than anything. At this point, I'm gonna write you a prescription for BR calls and ask you to check back in on this in a couple weeks.

Student76

I didn't start getting the score I ultimately got on the LSAT until I had take about15 pts. The more the better. There is a pattern and the only way to recognize it is to keep seeing it. Keep going and don't be discouraged. I studied from July-May with 158-162 pts no movement for 10 months, then in May 166+ never dropped again. Nothing felt different but the scores were consistent. I took in June 168. Keep going, you're really close.

nicole.hopkins

@Student76 said:
There is a pattern and the only way to recognize it is to keep seeing it. Keep going and don't be discouraged. I studied from July-May with 158-162 pts no movement for 10 months, then in May 166+ never dropped again.

You are AWESOME. Thank you so much for this transparency. Extremely encouraging to myself and others.

bSM45LSAT

@nicole.hopkins said:
I'm gonna write you a prescription for BR calls and ask you to check back in on this in a couple weeks.

Haha alrighty LSAT Doc!

Is there some sort of schedule for future PTs that you will be BRing together? I got PTs 60-75 left to do, and 46-56 which I will most likely not get enough time to complete.

nicole.hopkins

@bSM45LSAT

https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=uo98fv4muqt7l3t87off6q7960@group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Chicago

Student76

@nicole.hopkins thanks, I think it's so much better to hear real stories rather than just people's scores. I read someone's comment that it took them at least 12 to even start to see a difference and I remembered that when I was not seeing a change.10 tests can be really crushing if you don't know it gets better. Especially 10 tests after doing the whole 7sage course. It's hard. I thought I was "pretty smart" but this test really humbled me. I really wanted to be in the 170s, I thought I worked hard enough for it. But when you shoot for perfection and miss, you can still end up in the 96th percentile. Because I noticed some stupid uncommon mistakes I made, I got really close to retaking in October just to accomplish my goal of 170s. Don't lose sight of what your goal really is, I got into my first/only choice 4 weeks before class starts so I guess I will let the 170 go.

c.janson35

@bsm45lsat finishing the test faster doesn't mean you'll get higher scores, and if anything, I would think it would probably end up being detrimental. You don't want to speed through the reading of stimuli to get to the answers. That's wholly counterproductive. Speed is gained by understanding, not a forced read through. And if you routinely miss 13 questions on LR then your understanding is not quite there yet, so speeding through to finish 5 or even 10(!) minutes early isn't going to do the trick (my PT avg is in the high 70s and I've never finished an LR section 10 minutes early).

My advice would be to actually slow down. Accuracy is what's most important, not finishing the test. Would you rather reach question 21 missing only 0-1 on these, and have to guess on the last 4, or would you rather rush through to finish on time if that means missing 7?

Reading the stimulus can absolutely not be rushed. If you aren't evaluating the argument completely and understanding all that it's saying, then you're gonna go into the answer choices without a clear view of what to look for--choices that are designed by super experts that are meant to trip you up.

Work on understanding each question and stimulus on its own terms. Evaluate it and understand it. Only then will it be easier to move through the wrong choices because you'll have a good idea of what you are looking for.

eugene.chong

@bsm45lsat It seems like you should take a deep breath. You're in the high 150's and you want ~165, around 8 more questions per test. As with anything in life, your goals should be big but your vision of progress should be incremental. Aim for the best score you can possibly get every time with the understanding that you'll only be able to chip away slowly at that deficit.

Follow everyone's advice here with BR. It's tempting to gloss over it because you may feel better off taking another test, but that's not the case.

Specifically for LR, one thing I've been doing that I find immensely helpful is to look at the wrong answers for questions (both easy and difficult) and think about what would need to change about that answer to make it correct. If an answer to a parallel method of reasoning question is incorrect, consider what it is about the wording or relationship between conditions you could change to "fix" it. This is another angle to mastering the questions; if process of elimination allowed you to disqualify a question, think about what it would take to un-eliminate it.

bSM45LSAT

@c.janson35 said:
And if you routinely miss 13 questions on LR then your understanding is not quite there yet, so speeding through to finish 5 or even 10(!) minutes early isn't going to do the trick (my PT avg is in the high 70s and I've never finished an LR section 10 minutes early).

This was the first time I pushed myself to go faster, I usually just read through at a normal pace and finish just in time. I just found it interesting that there was no score difference when I pushed myself or when I didn't. And I just BRed the test this weekend and every question I got was literally one of those trap questions, where there was one popular wrong answer choice, and then a subtle right answer. According to the analytics as well, most people would mess up and pick the wrong answer. I'm not justifying anything, but at least now I'm not messing up on easy questions, so I can hone down to these tougher questions.

I made a document with all the questions I've gotten wrong from the last 10 PTs, and will keep drilling them and adding to it as I do more PTs!

@eugene.chong said:
It seems like you should take a deep breath. You're in the high 150's and you want ~165, around 8 more questions per test.

Thanks for the advice! My goal is actually only 160, anything above that would just be for my own esteem rather than required for the schools I'm trying to get into. I'm now finally PTing at 160s, but I need to get higher in case I drop points on actual test day.

majilacudy3

@DumbHollywoodActor said:
I actually typed out explanations for my first 5 PTs until I reached a 175 BR score.

Awesome advice! Quick clarification - did you type it out during BR and then check your reasoning for each problem right then or do it after you had BR'd the entire test and checked your reasoning on any low, high and very high priority questions from the LSAT analytics? I am on my 4th PT, BR score 161, and making no improvement (which is to be expected at this point in the game). I would like to take a similar approach that you did with writing out my explanations, and want to figure out how best to do it so that I make sure I am making the most out of the process.

DumbHollywoodActor

I wrote them out completely blind. Then, after I entered everything into the analytics, I added an addendum either to questions I got wrong, correctly explaining why my reasoning was wrong, or to questions I got right but for the wrong reasons.

Be ready for it to take forever, but it's very helpful. I have yet to blind review under 170 because of that process.