JD for Professorship?

markariangeorge

Hi 7Sage community,

I had a non-LSAT related question I was hoping to get advice in. As I have been thinking about possible job placements after law school and continue to get experience at my firm, I am realizing I am not very passionate about becoming an attorney. I am interested in law but I am much more interested in the scholarly side of it and the theory behind it than in the practice of it. Most of the attorney I work with are not very happy people but more importantly I do not relish the idea of being stuck in front of a computer 65-80 hours a week drafting motions (most likely for not very good people or corporations). I have always wanted to end my career teaching at a college or university no matter what I decided to study but the more I think about it, the more that is actually all I want to do.

So I was wonder what people think about a JD for an academic career? I know most professors do not have a JD but I don't know if this is because most JDs don't want to teach or because most universities and colleges don't want JDs teaching? I would love to teach law but could also enjoy teaching American politics for example and am trying to decide whether law school is right for me now.

Part of my dilemma exist because I believe I would enjoy the study of law and teaching it as I enjoy reading law journals just for fun (though partially to improve RC). But part of my dilemma might also be coming from having invest so much time, energy, and money into the LSAT and the law school application process. I am scoring around a 167 on my PTs now and am only 8 PTs in so I have a lot of room for improvement and can likely get into a T-14 if I push a little more. On the other hand I have no idea how I would do on the GRE or what my chances are of getting into a top Ph.D. program. But I don't want to continue down this path if it is not the best way to realize my career goals. So that is why I am asking for advice. Is a JD a good option for pursuing a career in academia? Especially if I have better chances of attending an elite law school than an elite Ph.D. program (maybe)? Or should I just cut my losses in the law school admissions process and try to get into a Ph.D. program?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!!!!

Sincerely,
Confused Post-grad

dinobunny

Hi there, I work in higher education and here is my two cents: I think it would be good if you can decide what discipline you'd like to teach first, you can then choose your degree program accordingly. Most law prof have a JD but not PhD (note a JD by itself def not enough to get a teaching position in law school), but some have JD & PhDs (e.g. interdisciplinary work with policy studies, psychology, psychiatry). Some PhDs do teach in law school (whether full-time, adjunct or clinical) but they usually have something really special, e.g. Elizabeth Loftus deals with psychology & law (her work is about memory & false testimony). Teaching in most disciplines do require a PhD degree and most institutions prefer those graduated from elite schools. I.e. you will need to take GRE, which is way easier than LSAT. With 167 you totally have the capacity to do well in GRE. And of course there some disciplines require only MA and those profs almost always have specialties or professional experiences, such as in the field of journalism, business school, media studies.

markariangeorge

@dinobunny said:
Most law prof have a JD but not PhD (note a JD by itself def not enough to get a teaching position in law school

I'm not sure I completely understood what you meant here. Are you saying most law professors at your campus have a JD but no PhD but have something else (like work experience) that makes them qualified to teach? Because if a "JD by itself is def not enough to get teaching position" how do they have these positions?

dinobunny

Exactly. If you look up faculty in any law school you will find most of them hold a JD, and most of them do not have a PhD. But JD is neither sufficient nor necessary (although typically required, depending on the area of practice) for a teaching position at a law school as I explained earlier, especially for clinical prof positions. As for what they are looking for, here is an ad from Columbia Law hiring an associate prof of law:

J.D. or J.D./Ph.D. required. At a minimum, a candidate for the position is expected to have high levels of educational attainment appropriate to law teaching, including a strong academic record.
Applicants should demonstrate the capacity for original and high quality scholarship (as demonstrated through prior work or works in progress), to have shown an ability to engage in clear and effective teaching (through prior experience and/or through a presentation to the faculty of law), and to have attained a high reputation among those in the scholarly community (as determined through recommendations). Law journal experience; judicial clerkship, especially Supreme Court; significant practical experience and expertise in law practice; academic honors and fellowships.

markariangeorge

@dinobunny Hmm. Interesting. I just checked, California Community Colleges will let you teach with a BA in the field you want to teach and a JD. That sounds promising and doesn't require research with I do enjoy but less than teaching I believe.

In your experience, do JDs need to go to an elite institution to be recruited as professors? Also are most of the professors you know who teach with only a JD full time? I know clinical prof. often are not.

Nilesh S

@markariangeorge yes... legal academia is pretty snooty that way... if you want to teach at law school, then (and I know there are exceptions to the rule - there always are - but you wouldn't want to gamble on being the exception or the special snowflake) you must go to ideally a top 4 school - and I don't include Columbia in that bracket for this purpose though they have produced a number of good academics... Its Yale Harvard Chicago and Stanford in that order or if you can't get into those, then any of the other T14 + Texas, Vanderbilt and UCLA... legal academia is coveted and its MUCH easier to get a top law firm job then that of a legal academic... even at the schools I mentioned, you'd likely have to be top of your class, then follow it up with law review and a federal clerkship, unless you want to teach corporate law in which case a Delaware Court of Chancery or a Delaware Supreme Court clerkship might suffice, also you need to have published in your field of choice and be able to handle at least 1 !L compulsory course. If legal academia is your goal and you can't get into one of the above mentioned schools... DO NOT go to law school... even if you can go to one of the above... think hard because there is no surety (especially in today's market - of ending up with a teaching job in academia even if your CV hits all the right notes - jobs are MUCH fewer to come by (life tenure is the problem). A PhD might actually serve you well because a lot of law professors do not have a JD but have a PhD from a top place in their field... and end up on the faculties of law schools... Michael Wachter & David Abrams of Penn, William Landes of Chicago, Keith Bybee of Syracuse, Martha Nussbaum of Chicaog all have only PhDs... the first 3 in economics (a hot potato if you are considering teaching in Law school without a JD), Bybee in Political Science and Nussbaum in philosophy... mind you your programs have to be top of the field for PhDs as well... so bear that in mind as you make your choices.

Nilesh S

The other route is that you could go to a T14, practice for a few years, bang out a couple of articles in your area of practice, and apply as an adjunct... or try for a Bigelow or a Clemenko (those are the two big ones) teaching fellowship -0 or get a PhD along with your JD or even after the years of practice that I mentioned... in that case, going to a lower T14 might be worth it if you want to go to academia... say go to a Michigan... do 3 years of law practice - publish an article or two in the interim, then apply for a PhD (a top US one or Oxford - no other - people will say Cambridge is just as good.... not if you want to teach in the States)... and then put yourself on the academic meat market...

Nilesh S

If you are interested in becoming a legal academic, contact Prof. Brian Leiter at Chicago... he will tell you how to proceed. I don't think there is anyone who is as valuable a resource as him for this particular track, perhaps in the country... you would probably have come across his blog. He also does the Leiter Rankings for law schools.

markariangeorge

@"Nilesh S" Thank you SOOO much for all the advice! My worry about doing only a PhD is that unless I get into a top program, I also have no guarantee for a job. Even worse, I have nothing else that I am qualified to do. If you get a crappy adviser or don't get job right after graduating or don't get into a top 8 school for you field of study, your PhD becomes more a burden than a gift you know? Instead, with a JD I might be able to open up the possibility of academia but still be able to land another job if that doesn't work out. Furthermore, based on what I have read about admissions decision, I have abetter shot at a T-14 law school than a T-8 Poli Sci Ph.D program because I think I will do pretty well on the LSAT but my letter of Rec and my past research experience aren't top notch for a grad program though my GPA is ok (3.76) Do you think my train of thought is OK here for want to go to law school to possibly pursue academia?

Pacifico

So do a JD/PhD and then you won't have to worry about picking the wrong one

Nilesh S

So here is the deal. I would advise you not to go to law school relying on Plan B. Only go to law school if you are willing to PRACTICE law... this is not because I don't think that you can crack legal academia... but because its difficult for anyone to crack legal academia at this point in time... and if you don't like the practice of law... you will be EXTREMELY unhappy... you'll be stuck with what is (generally even after scholarship money) a boatload of debt... an occupation that you don't like... law is not the easiest occupation... I've been a lawyer for close to 10 years now... in my home country... I've published in top law journals such as the Yale Journal f International Law Online http://www.yjil.org/docs/pub/o-39-abeyratneandsinha-insular-and-inconsistent-indias-naz-foundation.pdf, worked with the Ad. Solicitor General of my country, taught law, presented papers abroad at international conferences... worked for international organizations AND led project reports for the UN that have been tabled before the UN general assembly... I LEGITIMATELY LOVE THE LAW AND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT... I'm doing my JD from Georgetown and there are STILL days when I don't like it and don't want to go to class in the morning... imagine the situation if you are somebody who remotely does not relish the thought of practicing law... On the other hand getting into a top PhD is a process that can be gamed... 1) get a very good GRE score... 2) work for free with a professor at a top school who deals with your area of interest... and get his reco... 3) demonstrate an interest in the field by reading the literature available and publishing in newspapers in your area of interest... and apply to a bunch of programs... the rule of thumb is that with a competitive application you will be able to secure entry to one out of every 3 programs that you are interested in.

Nilesh S

This is not saying that a JD is bad... or to discourage you in any way... heck even I want to get back to legal academia...) just that a JD is bad if you are relying on it for getting into academia... also with all due respect as someone who is doing a JD/PhD (half finished with the PhD) and has taught... while I would not totally negate that advice indeed it can be valuable in some situations and may* - not will but may* in a limited subset of cases make the road to academia slightly easier ... I would be very VERY cautious before acting on it or even giving that advice lightly off the cuff... 1) because the JD aspect costs money... 2) with academia as bad as it is you will be sacrificing 2 years of earning potential with no sure guarantee of a job in the area you want - (2 years ago the academic meat market had close to 160 odd seats... last year it was 86 - almost half that - my friend who I TAed for and who was a JD PhD Pol Science in Pol Theory from Chicago (as you know Chicago is number 4 for law and in Pol Sci - theory it regularly interchanges spots with Princeton and Harvard for the top 3) with a federal clerkship and litigation experience at Paul Wiess got rejected by UNC despite their being interested in him because they didn't have the money to hire him... he was looking at Northeastern which rejected him as well - he did not fit their mold... and this is a guy from Chicago... THE University of Chicago... he struck out for a year which is why he was doing a fellowship... He finally got a job at a law school down in the south with has a decent rank but he was even considering law and society programs at liberal arts colleges... there are others who have given up on academia entirely... one guy with a JD from UCLA and a PhD from Cambridge... no job - considering a law firm now after being a teaching fellow) 3) some firms might look upon your PhD not so favorably - why would you want to reduce your options in this market? 4) the JD PhD if it has to be attempted has to be attempted from the schools listed above so the range is small anyways--- unless you do them separately - which takes more time (moi). That said... a sightly below par JD (for academia purposes) can be offset with a top notch PhD in your field or vice versa... eg. Jon Klick (his JD was from George Mason - not a place renowned for producing legal academics - but he had his Econ PhD from there as well and that is one of the TOP econ programs in the country - with perennial Nobel finalist Gordon Tullock being there (when he was alive anyway) - net result - Klick (who I count as a mentor and a friend) is economist wit h the RAND corporation, a professor of law at the University of Pennsylvania and runs the Erasmus Doctorate in Law and Economics program at Europe (chair in Empirical Legal Studies) with his fingers in many other European programs - In short -DO NOT apply to a JD PhD lightly... it can/may* in a (very) limited subset of cases be valuable.. but THINK it through... Read this article and DO get in touch with Leiter... he is an awesome resource... http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2011/09/jdphd-programs.html

Nilesh S

Top JD/PHD programs for Philosophy would be 1) Follow your JD up with a D.Phil from Oxon - don't even thing about this one 2) NYU(Pretty much everyone including "so called" heavyweight Jeremy Waldron, Habermas, Nagel etc) & UCLA (Shiffrin is top dog) 3) Chicago(Leiter, Nussbaum), Michigan and @nicole.hopkins dream school - UT Austin (especially for philosophy and criminal law)4) Harvard, Yale, GULC (Laurence Solum, David Luban), Penn (Stephen Perry and Claire Finkelstein- though you may have mixed feelings about her, Bill Ewald -who is a superstud - and very underrated - he was Ronald Dworkin's understudy), Columbia (Joseph Raz - the only one of the big 3 - Hart, Dworkin, and Raz alive), Berkeley, UNC (Gerald Postema), Minnesota (Brian Bix is a HUGE draw) - though here it starts to get iffy because UNC adn Minnesota are not schools you would want to go to for a JD if you wanted to go to Academia - there are a few others - but see if you feel more comfortable with Natural Law or Postivist theory), Duke (Matt Adler - Adler is a brilliant polymath, much like Ewald who has a fantastic command of legal philosophy and economics (risk regulation) and is one of the very best constitutional law scholars of the country), Toronto is another one I would recommend for the PhD. For Political Science again the Usual Suspects - Harvard, Yale, Chicago (Rosenberg, Ginsburg, Hardcourt, Stone), Stanford, Michigan, Columbia, Berkely, UT Austin (Levinson, Gary Geoffrey Jacohbson) you know the list Econ - 1) Chicago (could there be any other?? - you'll pretty much put yourself up there for a nobel - and I'm only half kidding - Levitt of Freakonomics fame, Landes, Malani, Posner and Easterbrook (though they are judges and not trained economists but they have been very influential in the law and econ movement and teach cross listed seminars there), Harvard (Shlefer), Penn (Klick, Wachter and Abrams) many many more at various different schools.

Nilesh S

The other person you can mail is Malcolm Feeley who runs the JSP PhD program at Berkeley or if you could get hold of her than Lee Epstein who studies Pol Sci. Law and Courts at WUSTL (which again is a top PhD program if you want to do your PhD after your JD or vice versa...

Nilesh S

Actually for you some PhDs such as the JSP from Berkeley, the CLASS program with Michael McCann Washington at Seattle, & Criminology,Law and Society Irvine might actually be good. They have Heavy Recruitment... specially the Class program (Alec Stone Sweet was a product) and The JSP has bred legends like Ginsburg and McCann.

markariangeorge

@"Nilesh S" You sir, are a real superhero. Thank you so much for your help. Luckily I still live pretty close to Cal and so might be able to hit up a professor there and ask for a research opportunity (in the time I would normally study for the LSAT). I know scrape up two other good letters of rec from professors at my community college if those are worth much and probably do pretty well on the GRE. Might just be dropping this whole JD thing for good than. Probably need to talk to a couple of folks but it seems right. Thanks so much for that advice again!!!!