LG Bundle games first attempt takes too long

Not Ralph Nader

I started working through the LG bundle concurrently with LSAT Trainer 20 days ago, I manged to finish PT 1 to PT 11 logic games using Pacifico attack strategy, while trying to push down the time one minute under target time recommended for each game. The problem is that despite the fact I took every logic game from PT 1-35 at least once (nearly four months ago) my first attempt time always is at least 2-3 minutes higher than target time and for some wired games it is much higher.

Any idea how can I solve this problem? I am afraid that I am burning the Bundle without getting much out of it.

Cant Get Right

The bundle is meant to be burned, so don’t worry about that. The burning of it is where the value comes from. What exactly is your process? Are you taking whole sections or just individual games? Are you using a stopwatch or a timer? Do you watch the videos and/or commentaries afterwards? (I really recommend the commentaries.) Are you getting all the questions right?

And it’s okay if you’re falling short of your target times, you’re fool proofing. It’s not a diagnostic, it’s an exercise to get you there. Just keep doing them. Over and over and over again. As you progress, you will see the same inferences over and over again. You will begin applying lessons you learn from one game to the next. Fool proofing is more about building that database of lessons. So, at this point, I wouldn’t worry too much about the times.

One thing I caught myself doing which was really counterproductive (I’m in the middle of fool proofing my games as well) is rushing. So obviously, speed is an enormous factor, and we all want to hit the target time if we can. But running out of time is never the actual illness, it’s the symptom. The illness is always a deficiency in the understanding of the core concepts and a lacking of experience. I kept trying to treat the symptom by moving really, really, really fast, and that’s what I mean when I say rushing. When I realized what I was doing, I reviewed the lessons. I still don’t feel like I have fully mastered them, but I’ve come a long way- far enough I have been able to stop myself from rushing. Paradoxically, it’s when I slow down that I can knock out an early sequencing game perfectly in 3 minutes. When I rush, I still don’t finish the same game on time, and I miss questions. When you rush, you perform worse and learn less. Don’t rush.

runiggyrun

Hi @nader.parham - you're on the right track. The fact that you saw the games once 4 months ago doesn't mean anything - games are very different from other parts of the LSAT, and a single exposure a long time ago is not enough to substantially lower your time - I would say that they are very close to being "fresh" games for you at this point, and it's normal to for them to take longer than the target times.
@"Cant Get Right" is spot on with the advice - keep proofing diligently and you'll reap the benefits - it will take longer (maybe a lot longer) than 20 days and 11 game sections, but it will happen, so keep doing what you're doing.

Not Ralph Nader

@"Cant Get Right" Thanks for your great and detail explanation.

I go through the bundle game by game, use timer and 80% of the time mange to get all questions right on the first attempt, then BR after that watch the explanation and read the commentaries and repeat the same process until bringing my time one minute under the target time while getting all questions right.

After 11 PT Should n't I would be able to finish at least some of them under the target time on first attempt?

Cant Get Right

As long as you’re committed to the process and studying smart, and it sounds like you are, you’ll get there. I know it’s frustrating, and I think you’re allowed a little frustration; but it’s way too soon to be worried. I’m the worst about that too. I’m just so ready to be there. But that’s not how we get there: It’s a slow, painful, incremental process. Just keep moving forward, and for now try to judge your success not on your testing results but on your progression. If you make a catastrophic mistake, great. Study it and understand why you did it and how you could have avoided it. If you can do that, that game has been a success.

Once you've gotten a game down, do you return to it after a time? Develop a schedule to systematically go back to previous sections. I wish I could find the method developed by The Big Pacifico. Maybe someone who has it book marked can post it? In the mean time, here’s the system I developed for myself which I based largely on @Pacifico ’s method.

I use vanilla folders- 35 folders with 10 copies of each section. On the folder, I label the game and attempt: So on the test Test 7 folder, Game 3 Attempt 2, or whatever. Every day, I'll work a new folder until everything is right and under time. Then it moves to the day pile. The next day, I do it again and it moves to the week pile. In a week, I do it again and move it to the month pile. In a month I do it again and if everything is right and under time, I retire it. If not, it goes back into circulation from the beginning. Systematically revisiting the games I've previously mastered has been really effective for me. When I do them back to back, I just do it without thinking. A little time between games makes me go back through the mental process.

apublicdisplay

Link to Pacifico's method: https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2737/logic-games-attack-strategy

Not Ralph Nader

The process is taking longer than I expected

I come back to games one day after I get them down and a week later than that; if I manage to score all of the questions correct then I will retire the game; I do not put them aside for one month later. But I keep track of my progress in a excel sheet developed by @Pacifico and keep an eye on those games that troubled me in order to come back to them when I finish the bundle.

On a separate note, I started LG -13 (untimed) around six month ago, now my score is around -7 (timed) is it realistic to aim for -0 by September?

Not Ralph Nader

@runiggyrun thanks for comment, I thought once I see a game then I should be able to do the game under target time even if I saw it some months back.

Cant Get Right

@nader.parham said:
On a separate note, I started LG -13 (untimed) around six month ago, now my score is around -7 (timed) is it realistic to aim for -0 by September?

Yeah, to me, everyone should aim for -0 on Games. Even if you don’t quite make it, that’s okay, but I think it’s a worthy and realistic target.

However, I do think it’s important to remember that for the LSAT as a whole (Specifically LR, but Games and RC as well), there are certain individual questions that are specifically designed for us to miss. So for everyone that scores a 170, for example, if you combine two random 170s and take the best possible combination of the two, you’re probably going to score about a 170. They probably missed the same questions, namely, the ones specifically designed to separate out the 170s from the +170s. Sure, you’ll probably get a point or two from careless errors, but that’s about it.

So to apply that to anyone aiming for -0 on a given section. -0 is an excellent target. Strive towards it and learn from your -1s. But if you miss the curve breaker rule replacement question which is meant to separate out the 177s from the 178s, don’t beat yourself up over falling 1 short of your -0. I mean, unless you’re aiming for 178.

Not Ralph Nader

@"Cant Get Right" said:
unless you’re aiming for 178

Oh no I am not aiming for 178 )) It became much clearer to me now. Thanks for answering my question in detail. I would be more than happy with -1 and -2 but still aim for -0.

Cant Get Right

Absolutely. The important thing is to just not be too hard on yourself. Discouragement comes easily enough as it is. The only time I might advocate for being a little hard on yourself is if you’re just not studying right and you know it. Half assing BRs, refusing to return to the curriculum when you know you need to, those types of things. This doesn’t seem to be you!

runiggyrun

@nader.parham I would consider going back to games later even if you "get them", like @"Cant Get Right" suggested. Especially if you're struggling with them. Mastery and speed require a lot of practice. A lot more than you might imagine, for some of us.
My method is very similar to the one described above, except with transparent sheet protectors instead of vanilla folders and a bit more "randomness" in the order of the games repeated. But they definitely all get done at least once a month. Two-three times in the first couple of days, then in a week or so, then in a month, then once a month till test day. That might be overkill for some, but it's been a lifesaver for me.
I can very much relate to "the process is taking longer than expected". The only thing I've ever done that felt remotely as hard and foreign as LG was teaching myself to touch type in my 20's. Both took months and months of relentless practice for hours a day with what seemed like very little improvement. But I did learn to type, and I will conquer these games! And you will too!

Not Ralph Nader

@runiggyrun Sorry to ask again, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Should I retake each game that I got using @Pacifico strategy, one month later? Do you think it would be ok if instead I finish the bundle using @Pacifico strategy and then redo the bundle again section by section instead of doing individual game?

Grey Warden

@nader.parham don't worry at all about burning the bundle, it is supposed to be burned. You are on the right track. When I was fool proofing the bundle for a second time after a gap I also experienced timing issues. For me it took fool proofing the whole bundle twice to get at a stage where I could score -1 or -2 on a regular LG section minus the really hard weird games. I am fool proofing it again cause I still don't feel completely confident. Just keep at it,you are doing good, gradually you will see the skills developed by fool proofing the bundle getting reflected in the scores of fresh LG sections you attempt. Getting -0 by September is very much a realistic target. It will take time but you will get there

Not Ralph Nader

@"Grey Warden" Thanks for sharing your experience, I thought once bundle is fool proofed, it can not be used again. I hope to get to -0. How many games did you do each day? I used to do five games every day but eventually it became too much to keep up, with previous games it added up to 10 to 12 games per day.

runiggyrun

@nader.parham said:
Should I retake each game that I got using @Pacifico strategy, one month later? Do you think it would be ok if instead I finish the bundle using @Pacifico strategy and then redo the bundle again section by section instead of doing individual game?

Yes, that would be perfect. I think it's OK to start out doing the games individually, but eventually you'll want to be proofing whole sections at the time, to develop a sense of what 35 minutes for 4 games means and how you want to deal with that.
Probably by the time you finish the bundle it will be close to a month from where you started, so you can just start doing those games as full sections and count it as your "month" repeat. Then as you start PT'ing, every time you finish a PT do that game section a couple of times in the first few days, than in a week, than in a month - that means that the games you do right before the test will get less "proofed", but by then you should have a lot of practice under your belt and it shouldn't be too much of a disadvantage.

As for volume, in the "intense" phase I did 5-6 sections a day for about a week. That seemed to tip the scales quite dramatically, and I felt a lot more confident in my ability to solve the easy games quickly and at least tackle the tough ones with a reasonable rate of success on the first try. It also seemed to be what was needed to get over the "freezing" I used to experience when looking at a new game under time pressure.
Then I scaled down to ~3 sections a day. Now I maintain/sharpen those skills on a couple of sections a day.

Grey Warden

@nader.parham , it can be used as many times as you like, repeat the games till the common and uncommon inferences are drilled into your memory so that you can recall them again more quickly and easily once you see a similar game. Repetition in logic games only helps. These days I do an average of two logic games section per day. When I did the bundle for the first time I did individual games at a time and recorded the times of a particular logic games section, I repeated doing the individual games till I was below the recommended time and was achieving perfect accuracy. The second time I did the bundle, I followed Pacifico's strategy and did the whole section at a time. I would suggest practicing the whole section at a time too cause this is when you develop the skill of skipping and coming back to the harder question after finishing the set so that you don't lose out on the easy questions, and this skill though seems easier to achieve on its face is actually much harder to put into practice.

Not Ralph Nader

@runiggyrun I have the freezing problem as well, when I look at a game for a first time. Do you think it would be ok if I take 6 new sections every other day and redo them in the days between and a week after that just redo them until I finish the bundle?

@"Grey Warden" You are right, I need to do the games by section as well and hopefully manage to overcome my freezing problem and develop skipping skills. I need to work much harder as comparing to your workload per day I am really slacking

And thanks again for taking the time to comment, it really helps to keep me motivated and hopeful

runiggyrun

@nader.parham said:
Do you think it would be ok if I take 6 new sections every other day and redo them in the days between and a week after that just redo them until I finish the bundle?

I don't think the details of how you pick and spread out the sections matter all that much. I know that both @Pacifico and @"Cant Get Right" have a very organized system that tells them which section they should do every day, but I don't think that's absolutely necessary - rather a tool to take the guesswork out of the plan for the day. As long as you are consistently practicing 2-3 sections a day (maybe more if you have a week you can dedicate to the games), and you're not just doing the same 5 sections over and over, you'll reap the benefits. Your plan seems like it will do that in a nice organized fashion, but really, whichever system makes it easy for you to get the first couple of repeats in fairly close together (to learn and understand the best approach), than another repeat in a week-ish (to check that the approach has been successfully internalized) and then refresher repeats at month-ish intervals (to make sure you still own the approach even though you're unlikely to remember any details) is good.
Doesn't have to be exactly a week, or exactly a month.
Consistency and variety, not exact process are the key - work on games every day, work on as many different types of games as you can over time.

Not Ralph Nader

@runiggyrun Thanks your comment just made it very clear for me, need get back to drilling right now