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Related Discussions
Not sure if I want to live/practice in the US.. suggestions?
Hamaseh_S
Alum Member
Hi everyone. This is a kind of specific questions but I'm wondering if anyone has knowledge about this. I'm not sure if I want to live in the US after law school. If I do, I'm staying in California but I'm slowly thinking about moving to another country for adulthood lol. Because of this (I'm really not sure one way or another) I'm not sure 1) which schools to apply to and 2) what type of law I should study to "cover my bases".
I'd like to stay in California for law school because I think it would be really beneficial to have an American degree. However if you are like no Ham, you have to go to this school because 90% get jobs outside the US I'd love to hear (even if outside California). And of course, any law schools in California besides Stanford, UCLA, USC that would be particularly good for my situation?
What type of lawyers get jobs outside US? What do they study and what are their respective fields of work? Diplomatic and non-diplomatic suggestions?
Thanks guys!
ALSO if your suggestion is for me to google please let me know what to google!! I don't know which stats I should be paying attention to for my questions.
Comments
Name recognition/prestige probably becomes of primary importance if you're looking to work outside the US with a US JD. I'd imagine outside of the T3, only a handful of T14 schools would give you a strong shot outside US (I'm pretty sure not many outside the States are aware of the quality of UVA, UMich, and Northwestern, for instance).
The general rule of thumb is to attend law school in a region where you intend to practice. You'd have to hop over a bunch of licencing hurdles in order to secure a job as a lawyer outside of your country. Not many go down this path.
The percentages of those employed internationally from T14's seems to hover between 2-4% of the graduating class. Some reference points:
https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/ocs/recent-employment-data/
https://law.yale.edu/student-life/career-development/employment-data/class-2017-employment
https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates
To get a foreign law degree -
You would have to get a bachelor’s degree of law in the country you want to practice (3 years), then get a law degree there (approx 3 more years with like a year of it being an internship). Or you could just try to study for the equivalent of the bar exam in whichever country. Your bachelors credits won’t transfer.
I know some schools like Cornell(?) have combined programs where you get an American JD while also studying for a foreign JD equivalent. I think at Cornell it’s combined with a french law school’s program, you must speak french fluently.
As for what US jobs are available abroad in which you don’t have to speak the language of that nation, I have no idea. Probably really lucrative jobs like international law.
It’s hard for me to believe that many Americans who don’t speak another language actively seek out just generally to “practice outside of the US.” I think you’d need to look into a specific firm to work for that practices internationally and see which schools they recruit from and what traits they look for.
I think you need to go travel before you enter law school before you make a $300k mistake. If you're not feeling like practicing in other states or California, then maybe you should evaluate all your alternatives. I'm sure if you go to an elite school like UCLA, that you'd be able to get an international job in Hong Kong, but I have no idea what other hoops you have to jump through.
Check out this PDF. https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/253915.pdf
Here is are a couple more resources:
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/how_these_american_lawyers_have_built_their_lives_and_careers_in_foreign
https://abaforlawstudents.com/2016/01/01/inside-secrets-from-an-international-lawyer/
https://abovethelaw.com/2017/08/10-things-to-know-about-working-as-an-attorney-overseas/
https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/schools/law/pdf/CareerServicesDocuments/US lawyers practising in England and Wales Updated June 2008.pdf
You can work at an American law firm that has international offices. That will be mostly corporate law, securities, trust, etc. IGOs and NGOs are other options. You could also go the state department route, or join a branch of the military as an attorney. I also think a JD in the US transfers easily to Canada and Australia. There are a lot of options out there and you'll have to determine what is best for you. Knowing another language or two will be helpful. Completing internships abroad while in law school will be helpful. Schools do have combined programs with other countries to earn a JD in the US and equivalent in another country or an LLM while studying abroad. You'll have to look into different schools and programs. I have a friend who is at an east coat law school, not T14 and just completed L1 and an summer internship in London. I think he was doing something in business law, maybe securities and trusts.
To add to my previous post -- in case Canada interests you, you might want to look at this site: https://flsc.ca/national-committee-on-accreditation-nca/
As well as these: https://flsc.ca/national-committee-on-accreditation-nca/applying-to-the-nca/
https://flsc.ca/national-committee-on-accreditation-nca/faqs/
Typically, all foreign educated law students will have to have their credentials assessed by the NCA in order to practice in Canada. This would typically mean that you'd have to sit for accreditation exams and/or take extra law courses. Once you clear that, the question of finding a job in Canada would still need to be addressed. Corporate law is an area that's been mentioned, so you might want to look at the percentage of foriegn educated lawyers working for big law firms here. AFAIK, they're no more than a handful (and these usually tend to be from HYS and Oxbridge).
I myself have contemplated moving south for law school (I'm Canadian), but after having spoken to some folks in the legal field here I was advised not to if I intended to come back home to practice. Canadian employers are most familiar with the Canadian schools, and they tend to favor such candidates by a significant margin. Just as majority of American employers aren't aware of the quality of U Toronto, McGill and UBC, for instance, it's reasonable to expect Canadian employers to not know about the quality of the law schools I've mentioned in my previous post.
Do you have a particular country in mind? Your options would change greatly based on your country choice alone. Like some people have mentioned already, many countries train their lawyers in undergrad, or a mix of undergrad + graduate school + specialized vocational training. For example Columbia has a JD/M1 program that let's you get the basic qualification to sit for the French bar, but if you're looking at an Asian country there aren't many programs that will prepare you academically to sit for various Asian bar exams.
I would also highly recommend visiting, if not spending a year in, the country (countries?) you're considering before making the leap. You might find that you love it, or that you want to run away. Work culture can also be a massive downside in some countries.
There's of course a big difference between being based in the US and working for a firm's international offices (through business trips) and living/working while being based internationally.
Working for a US firm that handles international clients might allow you take frequent trips abroad. Working in the public sector for the government/international NGOs (Foreign Service, UN, etc.) might also give you options to work frequently/long-term abroad.
However, if you're looking at being based abroad I'm sure you could find foreign lawyers for any type of work, but I would assume it would be on the corporate side. I couldn't see much use for an individual trained in the criminal/civil laws of a completely different country having a great deal of value outside of that country. Then again, I'm not a lawyer (yet) so I can't say for sure. But beyond that, your ability to practice in another country may be limited by a lot of different factors, including your citizenship, language barriers, and government regulations.
So I'm mostly familiar with Japan (lived there). It's likely a lot more strict than other countries are, but there are a couple major routes to practice law there:
1. Become an attorney/prosecutor/judge by going through the general Japanese graduate education system + pass the bar (you can pick being an attorney/prosecutor/judge based on your exam results--the highest scorers usually end up becoming judges) + 1-2 years of specialized training. Of course, doing any of this means native/practically native-level language skills and, to be a prosecutor or judge, Japanese citizenship. That's all assuming you pass the Japanese bar exam because it is notoriously, insanely difficult (last year ~6000 people took the bar, the passage rate was ~25%).
2. Qualifying as a Gaikokuho Jimu Bengoshi, aka gaiben, literally "Foreign Lawyer." Basically, you get to advise clients on the laws of your home country, but there are several restrictions, like not being able to represent clients in Japanese courts. To qualify as a gaiben there's also a requirement to have practiced in your home country for at least three years (I think it was reduced from four).
In case you're curious: https://www.nichibenren.or.jp/en/about/judicial_system/attorney_system.html
Again, just an example, but I would be super sure about the requirements for foreign lawyers in the country you're considering (especially if you don't have citizenship there) if you're hoping to get qualified abroad.
Of course, getting opportunities in any foreign country will be easier if you go to a school with great name recognition. I mean, few people who've gone through higher education in any country can say they've never heard of Yale, Harvard, Stanford. But I would guess that majority of T14 grads employed abroad are international students who got qualified in US universities with aims to practice in their home countries. I'm sure that's not always the case, but it just seems more likely.
I know this is not exactly the advice you were looking for, but I think I agree with @"Adam Hawks" that you should consider traveling and living abroad before law school. Law is such a heavily regulated profession that it's going to be on the difficult side to go to a US law school and plan on practicing abroad. If you want to be a lawyer, that's a tough road. If you don't necessarily want to practice law but want the knowledge for a career, like say in diplomacy or working at an NGO, then it's more feasible. But it's such a narrow thing, especially if you don't have a specific location where you have ties and know the language, etc. I think you might be better off finding a way to travel or live abroad before law school. As a bonus, it will make your application more interesting and give you good work/life experience.
You could look into foreign service with the state department (although I think there's likely a hiring freeze), finding a job at an American company with foreign offices that might be willing to transfer you abroad, or just traveling for a while and see if there's a specific country you want to aim for.
If you want to do some specific research, you could try contacting admissions and/or career services at schools you want to attend and see if you could ask them questions about their graduates going abroad, and maybe they can even connect you with an alumnus that would be willing to answer questions about the process. Or just head to linkedin yourself and find alumni abroad that attended US law schools and try to connect.
I think that if you want to live outside of the US after you go to law school, you should get your degree outside of the US. I will also point out that California, NY, and a few other states let you practice law with a foreign degree-- granted you still pass the US Bar. So your decision would only be semi-permanent, if that makes sense. I'm applying to Canadian schools, knowing that I can always move to California or NY if I don't want to stay in Canada. However, I have family in Canada and have been quite there a few times, so I already know what the country is like. Also, I need healthcare that doesn't cost me $11,000 from the marketplace, but that's a different story lol.
Wow thank you guys for the information, this is amazing. A lot to consider
Ahh just want to say! I was thinking about a friend of friend who studied law in US and then got a job in Dubai for Huda Beauty (and he defs doesn't speak Arabic).... and then what you said just clicked. as I realized Huda Beauty - based in Emirates, sells in US.. maybe industry specific companies would be a good place to start my search. Thanks!
Lol I would never consider law school a mistake! I'm v excited to begin. Also yes, I agree but luckily I have been to or lived in the countries I have in mind so I got those bases covered thank G
Yes great idea!
Ah Ham! We are on the same wavelength. Text me if you want to chat about it. I am strongly considering Canadian law schools because of the lower tuition and better public schools for the babies. This has been so helpful! I read that only a couple of states (maybe NY and MA?) allow a person with a Canadian law degree to practice right after passing the bar. Others require you to work a few years before sitting the bar and practicing in the states. I know one law school in Canada offers a dual degree, so you can walk out with a JD.
U-Penn has a 3-year J.D/LLM program where you get your LLM in your 3rd year from Hong Kong University. It's a great option if you want to leave your options open domestically and abroad. HKU has a lot of prestige in Asia/Oceania. I'd venture that U-Penn carries notable prestige abroad as well.
I spent a semester abroad in Hong Kong. Absolutely loved it. It has a very distinct culture and atmosphere while still being very friendly towards expats.
Also worth checking out study abroad/dual degrees at schools that have a strong international focus like at NYU and Columbia. For example, Columbia has FANTASTIC options to get LLMs in other countries.
Just to add, another possibility would be to work as a legal advisor for companies abroad that conduct business in the US. So you would be able to use your knowledge of law from the US to work with those companies in guiding them, but you may not be able to use your degree to work within the judicial system of that country without first completing the requirements to practice law in that country.
As @teamteamvicster said, some states offer the ability to practice with a foreign law degree. I know that California is also on the list-- though it is a short list. The tuition fees are generally cheaper, though the numbers listed on websites are often different for international students (up to 3x as much). Just pay attention to that.