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I think... I was assaulted by the LSAT administrators
Bamboosprout
Alum Member
Last year, I was kicked out of an LSAT administration because I did not drop my pencil in time. Getting kicked out was perfectly understandable. I violated a rule, and got what I deserved.
What I didn't understand at the time was that, in their report, the administrators left out a very important piece of information, namely how I ended up dropping my pencil. An administrator forcefully made contact with me, and essentially smacked the pencil out of my hand. To clarify, it was not that I took a long time to drop the pencil; instead, she stood next to me during most of the test, because I sat in the corner, so she just happened to be there was the time was called (there were people still writing afterwards). Although a tutor from 7sage said I should bring this up to LSAC, at the time, I thought it would be pointless or meaningless. Or maybe it was because my Asian parents have taught me that being hit for doing something bad in an academic environment is normal. But then, I watched the following youtube video, and learned that assault is assault, and that they should be held responsible for what they did, as I was.
Does anyone have any suggestions for what, if anything, I should do?
Comments
You should not have been working after time was called. The fact that you were targeted as opposed to others is irrelevant. That is like saying others were speeding when you get pulled over. It’s still up to the cop as to whether to give you a ticket.
As it relates to the alleged “assault,” smacking the pencil out of your hand does not count. Is it rude? Maybe. But your post does not suggest that they touched you. It also does not suggest that they touched you in a way that caused injury (whether intentional or not). Inadvertent contact could be permissible given the fact that you were violating test center rules. That is especially true if the intent was to smack the pencil. Unless you have evidence of the purported assault, i.e., video of the incident, you don’t have a case. That is unlikely considering that they do not allow electronics in the testing room. Also, the fact that you did not report it right away works against you. You could just be exaggerating the incident to create a complaint (which is what it sounds like to me). Of course, I was not there.
Bottom line, your post does not show that the LSAC did anything wrong here.
I would probably let it go. You could always let LSAC know that one of their moderators behaved inappropriately but I don't know that it's even worth your time. I personally would want to remove myself from that situation as much as possible.
A bit of a harsh take with such a small reference point of knowledge no? Your response comes off as condescending and judgmental as opposed to helpful. I know if I was the one posting this and your comment was the first one I saw, it would make me wonder why I even bothered asking for advice in the first place.
@Bamboosprout first impression, report it. Regardless of intention, it made you feel uncomfortable in a safe testing environment. Chances are if this person did this to you in an open environment, they feel it is okay because they have done it before and gotten away with it w/o repercussions.
Luckily, from your post I did not read that this made you give up on your law school dreams. Who is to say that someone not as prepared as you had this happen to them and their dreams went to the garbage?
The argument that too much time has passed does not hold much weight with me. Since this happened to you, report it.
My litmus test for situations in which I feel weird about is to ask myself if I were in their shoes would this be a rational response to a situation?
Personally, based on what you have put forward in your post, I feel hitting the pencil out of your hand crossed the personal space line. I know I would feel icky if someone got that close to me and hit something out of my hand in front of an entire testing center.
This is a really bad idea. Please do not raise this issue to LSAC or law schools. Think about it from the law school's perspective. There is a red flag in your record for having worked past the time allotted. That's not a dealbreaker. I'm sure they've dealt with plenty of people who have had that and if you explain what happened it can be managed. But if they see that a applicant with this red flag also notes that a proctor knocked a pencil out of his hand, it makes it seem like the student is still aggrieved by having been written up for going over the allotted time. Even if the school believes that the proctor did in fact knock the pencil out of your hand, the fact that the applicant feels like it's worth mentioning is very odd and concerning. Frankly, it seems extremely weird and would make me concerned about this person's behavior in school.
While it was unwanted touching if he did smack your hand, and thus, WRONG... I kind of have to agree with others right now. Could you complain about it? Yes. Is there any good that will come from it? Likely not. I really hate to say this, but maybe letting it go, pushing it from your mind, and focusing on the next attempt would be best. This far after the fact, it could be seen as trying to make an issue of it and retaliate against the proctor (even if you have absolutely no intention of that). Without proof or witnesses or anything, it would be hard to prove anything, and would just be opening a can of worms that are already a mark against you.
However, if that EVER happens to you again, immediately speak up for yourself. Announcing "You have no right to touch me!" will get plenty of witnesses from those around you. And no, short of security/ law enforcement or for medical necessity, no one has a right to lay a hand on you without your permission. It doesn't matter if it wasn't hard enough to make marks. No. one. has. the. right. to. strike. at. you.
In my view making a case for assault is not the way to go. But it may be valuable to submit a clear record of the event from your point of view to the LSAT administration. Stating clearly that while you understand you violated a rule, you could let them know you felt it was important to let the administration be aware that the action by the particular administrator was inappropriate. As @"Jonah Chadwick Griego" says, it's possible this person has in the past made unwelcome contact of this kind, or may in the future. Your reporting it would provide a record.
How is it harsh? I'm going off of what the person said. What they described is not an assault. It is not even clear if they were touched or if the pencil was touched. Like I said, perhaps the proctor inadvertently touched them to smack the pencil. The fact that they are describing it as an assault makes the story seem exaggerated and inaccurate.
I agree that proctors should probably not be smacking the pencil out of people's hands. However, you are under LSAC's authority during the test. If they ask you to leave due to a violation and you refuse, they could probably physically remove you from the room. Also, LSAC requires any test center violation to be reported within 6 calendar days of the test. If the incident was that serious, it should have been reported right away. And by the way, I'm sure the proctor has a side to this story as well. If I was LSAC and I got this complaint, I would either (1) do nothing or (2) talk to the proctor and consider bringing misconduct and irregularity proceedings against the complainant if they exaggerated the incident.
OP isn't asking if OP's post in itself establishes a case of assault or whether the post as is should be sent to LSAC. OP is introducing a story and asking for suggestions as to what to do, if anything.
Your initial response doesn't seem to offer a lot of productive advice? At least that doesn't seem to be its focus. It comes off as an attack of the post as though OP is considering copying and pasting the post into an email to LSAC. That just doesn't seem to be productive, let alone helpful.
To be more productive in the future, I think identifying any missing information in the post and asking OP questions about that missing information before rendering a conclusion would be a good approach.
If there is more to the story, it is OP's job to tell us. It is not our job to assume that additional information exists. Nor is it our job to ask if other information exists. I'm not going to assume that an assault took place and I doubt that LSAC would either. The rest of you are not being helpful by making that assumption. OP asks whether they should tell LSAC. My first post made clear that there was no apparent wrongdoing based on the statements. That would kind of defeat the purpose of telling LSAC, wouldn't it? Sorry that you didn't get the point of my post. I hope that clears it up.
????????????????????????
& yet it is helpful to assume from, what is by your own admission, an incomplete set of facts (e.g. "But your post does not suggest that they touched you..."), that the assault did not occur ("As it relates to the alleged 'assault,' smacking the pencil out of your hand does not count) and that OP is just exaggerating?
Also people aren't assuming the assault took place...they're just offering advice as to whether/how OP should make OP's case to LSAC. LSAC wouldn't "assume" whether the assault happened or not either, it would make a determination...
If there is no assault, there is no case. OP presents the story as if there was an assault. Feel free to PM this person and ask if they have evidence. If not, LSAC will not make any "determination." They will toss the complaint in the bin. OP has violated LSAC rules twice. First, by going over the time limit during the test. Second, by not reporting the incident sooner. As I said previously, LSAC proctors may be legally allowed to touch you if you are clearly violating rules, e.g., refusing to leave when asked. Even if OP were touched, that would not necessarily be improper given that they violated the rules. There may have been some reason for the proctor's actions. Also, assault requires some combination of injury and intent. You can't just accuse anyone who touches you of assault.
The rest of your post is an inaccurate representation of my statements, so I will not respond. You seem more interested in coming after me instead of giving advice. My comments were not meant to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities. However, I stand by what I said.
OP’s second sentence literally states that they know what they did was wrong. Frankly, the tone of the comments made here is disappointing. 7Sage is about supporting members of the community, and your comments to OP go against that standard. I know that’s probably not your intention but that’s just how it reads. If this were a RC section and there was a question about author’s tone, that’s what my answer would be.
To the OP: I’m very sorry this happened to you. People touching you without permission is never ok. I would perhaps see if filing a report would make it so that law schools see it or not. Proctors are often hired by the test center, not LSAC, so contacting the center to file a complaint could also work. Just make sure the complaint doesn’t backfire. Once again I’m truly sorry that happened.
Lol. I don't think my comments go against that standard at all. Check out the following thread:
https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/17729/lsac-is-ridiculously-strict .
I don't remember hearing that then. What I said to the OP here is nothing compared to what people said in that post. Not one person said anything supportive then. I think it is totally hypocritical to hold different people to different standards in different posts.
And by the way, LSAC was wrong in that situation and they acknowledged it. They ended up removing the institution without the letter. Everyone who commented was incorrect. But everyone still went after the OP in that situation anyway. I wouldn't exactly call that encouraging.
I stand by my posts here. This wasn't an assault.
You aren’t exactly able to make that determination unless you have all the facts. Just because the facts weren’t completely stated at the beginning doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be shared with you if you were arguing one side or the other of this case.
Also, if this were a civil case the absence of physical contact doesn’t mean it wasn’t an assault. Most people think of an assault as a physical act that causes some type of injury like you described above, but in tort law (civil) an intentional act that is meant to and actually causes reasonable apprehension of immediate harm or offensive contact is an assault. We still don’t have enough information, but if we were trying to help Bamboo we would ask for more details and try to advise the best course of action. I agree with the majority here that bringing this up to LSAC this late is probably a bad idea for several of the reasons that have already been posted in this thread.
Lastly, I just wanted to tell you that it can be really difficult to argue some of the nuanced points that you and others have been making here on the forums. I read your other post, and it sucks when people make comments that are unhelpful. Sometimes people neglect to read the entire thread and jump in with their hot take, which can be frustrating. Some of the early responses to your other post seemed like attacks. Your comments there were pretty harsh at times.
Either way, we’re all on the same team here at 7Sage. We can have constructive debates and civil disagreements, but please treat those that you disagree with (or those who disagree with you) as though they are on your team. We all need to support each other here and in law school. Our professional reputations start now.
@drbrown2
I appreciate your comments and I agree with that it is important to support people when you can. As it relates to your first part about torts, that was my point. Trying to prove intent without injury one year later would be next to impossible. I agree that there may be more facts. But Bamboo's statement of facts would not be enough in a civil case. My opinion is that this does not amount to assault. You are free to pursue Bamboo and ask them for more information or evidence. However, this would likely end with LSAC doing nothing. If it was a court case, it would likely end with the court granting a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim for which relief can be granted. I essentially said what you said in a different way. My comments were not meant to offend.
I agree with your second part so it's probably best to leave it there.
An assault tort was committed - Assault and battery exists in both the tort law context and the criminal law context. ... In an act of physical violence, assault refers to the act which causes the victim to apprehend imminent physical harm, while battery refers to the actual act causing the physical harm.
This appears to be a civil issue. I believe a complaint is warranted, particularly if the person is able to be identified. Probably the date and test location are adequate to establish those facts.
I say a complaint is warranted - only. No formal legal action. It is appropriate because the individual that did that has no business in the role they were fulfilling.
I must emphasize it is never acceptable for any individual to act as you described. Other remedies were available and were apparently exercised.
If you're actually serious about this, you should take a look at the assault statute for your jurisdiction. For example, where I live, there has to either be intent to cause fear of bodily harm/death or intention to inflict/attempt to inflict bodily harm. If intent is an element that's required, it'll probably be pretty tough to prove there was intent given the circumstances of this incident.
Lol. I find this whole thread hilarious because no one here seems to understand how assault works or how to apply it to Bamboo's situation. Bamboo is not claiming that they suffered bodily harm or injury. They are claiming that they suffered unwanted touching (maybe). Such a claim necessarily requires intent. The proctor had to intentionally be touching them for the purpose of causing harm. Good luck proving that an LSAC proctor was out to touch you in an unwanted way. That would be difficult to prove even if the complaint was made right away. All that matters is what can be proven. And that is not just for a legal case. It is also for LSAC. What do you expect LSAC to do with a complaint like this? Unless Bamboo has witnesses or evidence of some kind, there is no case. Given that this was a test where there were no electronics allowed, what evidence would there be? Certainly not any video. It is also unlikely that Bamboo knew anyone there. Even if they have evidence, i.e., witnesses, the fact that they did not report it right away ruins their case. It destroys all credibility. Their claim about not reporting because of their race would not be sufficient to establish wrongdoing by the proctor.
By the way, there is this thing called a statute of limitations. Most jurisdictions have a statute of limitations around one year for civil assaults. Meaning, you cannot bring a case after that point. If that has not already passed, it will likely pass within days. A legal case with what we already know here would be a joke. Even an LSAC complaint would not go anywhere. LSAC requires complaints to be filed within six calendar days of the test. While everyone here seems to be obsessed with the finding the "facts," they seem not to be concerned about the other side of this story. The proctor would have their own facts. I bet that their version would be a lot different then Bamboo's version. We will never know what really happened to Bamboo. All we have is Bamboo's statement of what happened. Without evidence, those aren't even really "facts." They are nothing more than words. In the context of an assault allegation, words are not good enough. Bamboo's post is titled: "I think...I was assaulted...." Even @drbrown2 seemed to miss the point regarding the facts and making the case for intent.
I think it is just funny that there are a bunch of people here who don't know what they are talking about and they are liking the posts of other people who don't know what they are talking about either. A good example is @sjohansen1952 who claims that "[a]n assault tort was committed" based on Bamboo's post. There is nothing in Bamboo's post to support that any "physical harm" occurred. That post is worse than me claiming that there was no assault. It is the plaintiff's job to prove their case whether in court or to LSAC. Bamboo is bringing the issue. The proctor's job here would be nothing more than to deny the allegations. Based on what we know, that would be pretty easy. Case closed. And yes, this is a "civil issue." Bamboo did not call the cops, did they? If it were criminal, it would require charges by a prosecutor and the state...
Similar to the thread I referenced above regarding my situation with LSAC, people came after me without a full understanding of the situation. I wouldn't exactly call that being "supportive" of your fellow 7sager. However, it does not matter. I was right in that situation, and I am likely right here. Ganging up on me does not make Bamboo's case stronger. My posts in this thread may not have been stated as nicely as some would have liked, but courts will not kiss you on the head when they dismiss your case either. And a dismissal here would be almost inevitable both by LSAC and a court. Anyone who thinks this amounts to an assault tort based on what we know is likely on their way to a B in 1L Torts (at best). If you don't believe me now, come find me in a few years.
@"Mr. Singh" taking this way to seriously my dude. No one here is a lawyer yet. Nor does it really matter if OP can prove assault or not. OP is just asking for some simple advice, no need to fight everyone about the law. Simple "this is a good idea" or "this is a bad idea" would be enough. Also, understanding that there may not be a "right" answer and opinions can differ may help as well.
Me personally? You touch me or my property and you’re going to be pulling back a stump. No score is worth someone putting their hands on me.
Yeah, that's my thinking too. Thanks for the feedback.
Hmmm, yeah, I also think there isn't much to it at this point. Thanks for the feedback.
I considered filing a report for one reason: to warn LSAC of this incident, because it legitimately was distressing. Thinking back to the incident, combining my regret, self-punishment, and the shock of being physically disturbed, makes me feel nauseous, and have trouble breathing. I honestly still have trouble thinking of that incident as an assault though, because I was am so use to a different definition of assault. I have no intention of using this, if I file, as leverage in any way to benefit me. I just think no one needs to feel the added distress that I felt, when the scenario of knowing months of your time being Thanos'ed into nothingness is distressing enough already. LSAC should really make it clear that physical contact is unnecessary/unacceptable.
Good point. It would be really pointless if it becomes an effort to prove intent. In regards to your other points, I cannot confirm. All I know is the source I linked (the youtube video), which I do not know the accuracy of, clearly states that intent to harm is not a requirement of assault. The law is not clear to me, which is part of the reason why I am made this post. I believe the law is beautifully flexible, and am not committed to either view.
Thanks, as always, for the sage wisdom.
Yeah. Some times, the emotions get to me, but I want to be hyper rational about this, and I'll probably not do anything, or just write a short report telling them my side of the story, and stating that I do not want anything for my benefit, and just wanted them to have this piece of feedback.
Thanks everyone, for the feedback.
@Bamboosprout
Keeping your emotions in check and maintaining a rational mindset shows a lot of maturity and mental fortitude that will serve you well as a lawyer!
I grew up in Asian background, I know how much courage it would take to bring out this sort of shameful and embarrassing experience to others.
My advice would be, if report it makes you feel more secure and comfortable, just do it, you made a mistake, but you realized it and stopped. The administrator was doing his job, but he crossed the line, you have the right to report.
Anyway, just pick the way that makes you lessen the insecurity about the upcoming testing, Keep working on time management on test, good luck to you