JD or Joint JD/PhD program?

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• 4 Likes

  Law and Yoda Alum Member ⭐

  October 2020 edited October 2020 4312 karma

  First, I think its great that you're already thinking about these things this far ahead because it allows you to plan strategically. With that said, life happens and things change too so just keep that in the back of your mind as well. There is a lot that you mention above so I want to be sure to hit all of them.

  I want to get a PhD someday, in either English, African American studies, African American literature, comparative literature, or Sociology. But I ALSO really want to get a JD and become a law professor, teaching critical race theory.

  It sounds like you have an immense passion for these topics and want to build your life around what you enjoy learning. Start to research what paths a PhD or JD could lead you towards and which paths the two meet. Maybe learning a little bit more about which doors may open with either degree may shift your focus or confirm your focus.

  Previously I had planned to 1. go to law school, 2. work at a firm and pay off my considerable undergrad debt (around 80k) and whatever law school debt I may have then 3. think about becoming a law professor. And then later in life I'd get my PhD and become a regular undergrad professor. Or maybe I'd get my PhD before becoming a law professor. Now I've gotten enticed by joint JD/PhD programs, especially Northwestern's, which is fully funded. But the catch about having to go directly into legal academia and research, and not even being able to think about working at a law firm, gives me pause. I just read a forum about someone at who did Northwestern's JD/PhD program and not being able to find a job, which really alarms me because I need some way to pay off my undergrad loans. Going to a joint program for six years and not being able to find a job is something that can't happen to me.

  Joint degree programs can have an advantage because you may spend less time in school depending on the program/university. Keep in mind that we're in unprecedented times and depending on when that person wrote on the forum, it could be a factor as to why they cannot find a job. Granted, nothing is ever guaranteed. You could go to law school and come out without job security, same goes for just getting a PhD. That shouldn't shy you away from your goals or pursuing what you really want to do. Do consider looking into other JD/PhD programs to see what they offer (Stanford has a great joint program depending on the field of study).

  So, where should I go? I've been studying for the LSAT for 3 months now (and haven't really gotten anywhere) and plan to study as long as it takes. I also plan to take a gap year or two between undergrad and and the JD or join JD/Phd program. I plan to write a thesis next year, and for anyone wondering, I am definitely not thinking about solo PhD programs right now. Also I'm not super in to research yet. Also, a lot of my professional and work/internship experience is in diversity, equity, and inclusion and I would like to go into that field someday as well. Also I can also see myself as a author (fiction, poetry, nonfiction) down the road. So clearly I don't know for sure what I want to do yet. For sure, I feel compelled to go to law school and get that big salary. My undergrad loans weigh heavily on me and I'm cognizant of interest building up during the 3, 6, or 8+ years it takes me to get my degrees. Any and all insight is much appreciated.

  You have time on your side. Take the time to really think about everything you just mentioned. What do you want to do in your gap year? It could be possible that those years change your perspective again, which is totally fine. Could your thesis influence interest in research? Maybe. I love that you have a spark that ignites the fire of creativity, don't lose that. Keep asking yourself questions about who you are and what you enjoy and let that guide you. I noticed you said you're compelled to go to law school and get a big salary. Didn't seem like it from what you've mentioned above but just be sure not to choose a path because of the money. Trust yourself. Create the kind of self that you will be happy to live with all your life.

  You remind me of myself during undergrad (which was only 2 years ago but still) which is one of the reasons I felt inclined to comment, feel free to PM me to talk more
• 1 Like

  VerdantZephyr Member ⭐

  October 2020 2054 karma

  Having been to grad school, I want to say a few things. First, before deciding to get involved in academia, really think about if you want research to be your life, not just for the duration of the PhD program but the entire duration of your life in academia. Second, know that academia in law is probably competitive but outside of law the competition for jobs in incredibly intense and usually leads to PhDs living as adjuncts for years or indeterminately. I just had one of my favorite professors from undergrad tell me that she is leaving academia forever. This is someone with a published book and numerous articles in cultural history, with her PhD from an Ivy league school and having attended one of the most prestigious post grad programs in the field. I do not think she is even 40 years old. It is a very toxic industry. I went to grad school (an MA) to pursue that as a career and a year in I was ready to get out. I have spent the last 5 years trying to figure out what to do instead and have settled on law. However, that was a long, painful struggle, so make sure it is what you want.

  I say this not to deter you if that is really something that you want to do and think you will enjoy, but if the warning about being careful about making sure you are going to law school for the right reasons is true it is much, much truer for anyone considering a PhD in arts, humanities, or sociology. There are not many good jobs in that field at all. Many, many PhDs struggle to get by or even find work. Those that are good at research and come from presitious programs like Northwestern have a much better shot, but you still need an niche and you need to actually enjoy researching in that niche. I do not know, my field is interdisciplinary socio-cultural and comparitive cultural studies, but if critical race studies are a hot field right now that may mean there are more jobs but also more competition from young graduates interested in the field and established researchers that are pivoting into it. That is definitely part of the academic landscape. Hot field equals more research support equals established scholars in adjacent fields moving into it.

  It sounds like it is a maybe plan in the future. Really, really think long and hard about it. If you do move into Big Law for a few years you can certainly pay off your loans and come back to it later if you are not sure now. That said, of course if you are sure and do decide you do not mind research, 2 degrees in 6 years is far preferable to 8-10 years for the same two degrees. That said, if I were you with my experience now, I would say it is not a decision you should pull the trigger on yet. Thankfully, you are still a junior so it is not something you need to decide right now. Work on your thesis, see how you like it. See how the stress of editing and revising your research direction progresses. You have time. Good luck, you have very ambitious goals, I believe that you can succeed in them.
• dcmark07 Member

  November 2020 48 karma

  @"Law and Yoda" said:
  First, I think its great that you're already thinking about these things this far ahead because it allows you to plan strategically. With that said, life happens and things change too so just keep that in the back of your mind as well. There is a lot that you mention above so I want to be sure to hit all of them.

  I want to get a PhD someday, in either English, African American studies, African American literature, comparative literature, or Sociology. But I ALSO really want to get a JD and become a law professor, teaching critical race theory.

  It sounds like you have an immense passion for these topics and want to build your life around what you enjoy learning. Start to research what paths a PhD or JD could lead you towards and which paths the two meet. Maybe learning a little bit more about which doors may open with either degree may shift your focus or confirm your focus.

  Previously I had planned to 1. go to law school, 2. work at a firm and pay off my considerable undergrad debt (around 80k) and whatever law school debt I may have then 3. think about becoming a law professor. And then later in life I'd get my PhD and become a regular undergrad professor. Or maybe I'd get my PhD before becoming a law professor. Now I've gotten enticed by joint JD/PhD programs, especially Northwestern's, which is fully funded. But the catch about having to go directly into legal academia and research, and not even being able to think about working at a law firm, gives me pause. I just read a forum about someone at who did Northwestern's JD/PhD program and not being able to find a job, which really alarms me because I need some way to pay off my undergrad loans. Going to a joint program for six years and not being able to find a job is something that can't happen to me.

  Joint degree programs can have an advantage because you may spend less time in school depending on the program/university. Keep in mind that we're in unprecedented times and depending on when that person wrote on the forum, it could be a factor as to why they cannot find a job. Granted, nothing is ever guaranteed. You could go to law school and come out without job security, same goes for just getting a PhD. That shouldn't shy you away from your goals or pursuing what you really want to do. Do consider looking into other JD/PhD programs to see what they offer (Stanford has a great joint program depending on the field of study).

  So, where should I go? I've been studying for the LSAT for 3 months now (and haven't really gotten anywhere) and plan to study as long as it takes. I also plan to take a gap year or two between undergrad and and the JD or join JD/Phd program. I plan to write a thesis next year, and for anyone wondering, I am definitely not thinking about solo PhD programs right now. Also I'm not super in to research yet. Also, a lot of my professional and work/internship experience is in diversity, equity, and inclusion and I would like to go into that field someday as well. Also I can also see myself as a author (fiction, poetry, nonfiction) down the road. So clearly I don't know for sure what I want to do yet. For sure, I feel compelled to go to law school and get that big salary. My undergrad loans weigh heavily on me and I'm cognizant of interest building up during the 3, 6, or 8+ years it takes me to get my degrees. Any and all insight is much appreciated.

  You have time on your side. Take the time to really think about everything you just mentioned. What do you want to do in your gap year? It could be possible that those years change your perspective again, which is totally fine. Could your thesis influence interest in research? Maybe. I love that you have a spark that ignites the fire of creativity, don't lose that. Keep asking yourself questions about who you are and what you enjoy and let that guide you. I noticed you said you're compelled to go to law school and get a big salary. Didn't seem like it from what you've mentioned above but just be sure not to choose a path because of the money. Trust yourself. Create the kind of self that you will be happy to live with all your life.

  You remind me of myself during undergrad (which was only 2 years ago but still) which is one of the reasons I felt inclined to comment, feel free to PM me to talk more

  Thank you so much Yoda (spoken like master himself) for this thought out and kind and insightful comment. I'll try not to stress too much now because you're right, I do have time. I might PM you!
• 1 Like

  dcmark07 Member

  November 2020 48 karma

  @VerdantZephyr said:
  Having been to grad school, I want to say a few things. First, before deciding to get involved in academia, really think about if you want research to be your life, not just for the duration of the PhD program but the entire duration of your life in academia. Second, know that academia in law is probably competitive but outside of law the competition for jobs in incredibly intense and usually leads to PhDs living as adjuncts for years or indeterminately. I just had one of my favorite professors from undergrad tell me that she is leaving academia forever. This is someone with a published book and numerous articles in cultural history, with her PhD from an Ivy league school and having attended one of the most prestigious post grad programs in the field. I do not think she is even 40 years old. It is a very toxic industry. I went to grad school (an MA) to pursue that as a career and a year in I was ready to get out. I have spent the last 5 years trying to figure out what to do instead and have settled on law. However, that was a long, painful struggle, so make sure it is what you want.

  I say this not to deter you if that is really something that you want to do and think you will enjoy, but if the warning about being careful about making sure you are going to law school for the right reasons is true it is much, much truer for anyone considering a PhD in arts, humanities, or sociology. There are not many good jobs in that field at all. Many, many PhDs struggle to get by or even find work. Those that are good at research and come from presitious programs like Northwestern have a much better shot, but you still need an niche and you need to actually enjoy researching in that niche. I do not know, my field is interdisciplinary socio-cultural and comparitive cultural studies, but if critical race studies are a hot field right now that may mean there are more jobs but also more competition from young graduates interested in the field and established researchers that are pivoting into it. That is definitely part of the academic landscape. Hot field equals more research support equals established scholars in adjacent fields moving into it.

  It sounds like it is a maybe plan in the future. Really, really think long and hard about it. If you do move into Big Law for a few years you can certainly pay off your loans and come back to it later if you are not sure now. That said, of course if you are sure and do decide you do not mind research, 2 degrees in 6 years is far preferable to 8-10 years for the same two degrees. That said, if I were you with my experience now, I would say it is not a decision you should pull the trigger on yet. Thankfully, you are still a junior so it is not something you need to decide right now. Work on your thesis, see how you like it. See how the stress of editing and revising your research direction progresses. You have time. Good luck, you have very ambitious goals, I believe that you can succeed in them.

  Thank you so much Zephyr for your kind words and insights! For now I'll just work on getting my lsat score up.
• acaguilarcole Alum Member

  September 2023 11 karma

  I don't know if you might still see this but what did you end up deciding, I too am having the same predicament. Mellon Mays undergraduate with law and theory goals.