Timing or Fundamental Issue?

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• 1 Like

  GSU Hopeful Core ⭐

  July 2015 1644 karma

  I can sympathize with this. I'm about 14 tests in with a 175 average BR lately, but my timed tests are still lagging waaaaaay behind. Its not unheard of for my timed tests to be 20 points behind my BR. Extremely frustrating because I feel as though I have a grasp of the fundamentals, but timing is killing me at the moment.
• 3 Likes

  Pacifico Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 8021 karma

  It sounds like an issue with both. It's one thing to not get to the last two or three questions but if you're barely getting halfway through a section then obviously the first 10 questions are not as easy for you as you think they are. You're spending almost 2.5 minutes per question an average which is an obscenely long time to spend on any question that is not one of the very few curve breakers.
  
  You need some work on fundamentals, and that should help your timing a little bit. But you also need to develop better timing strategies because right now you're just reinforcing to yourself that it's okay to take this long on questions even when you know that's not really true. I would review a lot of the basics as well as start drilling LR sections. It sounds like you have too many issues with all questions so I would not focus on drilling particular types unless you have a lot of time. Drilling full LR sections would likely help the most in my opinion.
  
  Finally, remember that the only thing that gives an accurate representation of your skill level is taking the actual test. You can develop a false sense of security going through the curriculum but in the end you need to listen to what the PTs are telling you. It can be very humbling but if you don't listen then it is difficult to improve.
• 2 Likes

  nye8870 Alum ⭐

  July 2015 edited July 2015 1749 karma

  @tanes256 Do not feel alone. My situation is very similar. I know the feeling of satisfaction that comes with getting the answers correct (at all cost---time). @DumbHollywoodActor gave me a tip last night that I am going to try. I will share it with you. After PT and BR (assuming you have the tech capabilities for this) cut and paste blank copies from PDFs of the questions you still got wrong into a compiled Word doc. Once you collect around 25, make this set of sheets a "drilling" document. Now here comes the interesting part...set a timer for 1 min 20 sec and redo the questions under this challenging condition. Even though you may see these questions a few times over, the theory, I think, is that your brain will start to rise to the timed occasion. This kills two birds with one stone by working on the ones you have trouble with as well as building an internal clock (pace/drum-beat, I guess) which will spill over into your easier questions and help get you out of the rut of lingering on any question too long.
  @DumbHollywoodActor Please correct me if I have this strategy wrong.
  Hang in there @tanes256 !! as will I ...
• 1 Like

  DumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 edited July 2015 7468 karma

  Yeah @nye8870 the timing strategy can work with any drilling material, ones you cut and paste or just Cambridge stuff. The KEY is that when the timer hits 1:20, take a guess, circle the question and MOVE ON (but vow to come back). This ensures that you get “a look” at every question. Hopefully, you’re able to deposit some time in the bank by getting some of the easier questions (like main conclusion, SA and maybe some flaw questions) done in 30 seconds.
• 2 Likes

  c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 2398 karma

  Timing is directly related to how well you know the fundamentals. So if you are only finishing around half of the section, then your fundamentals aren't where you need them to be. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can start to improve your timing issues. After all, high scorers don't finish sections early because they have great timing strategies or because they can read quickly, it's because they have the requisite command of the fundamentals. The confidence that comes with knowing your skills are sharp facilitates everything--from identify flaws to intuiting correct answers/quickly eliminating trap answers.
  
  Don't worry about timing. First and foremost should be mastery of the fundamentals; once you get this, better timing will be an inevitable and welcome byproduct.
• 2 Likes

  Jonathan Wang Yearly Sage ⭐

  July 2015 6867 karma

  @c.janson35 nailed it. Timing strategies are crutches - implicit admissions that your skills are not up to par so you have to compensate some other way to maximize your points in the short run. Timing will come when your skills are up to par, and no sooner.
  
  I wrote a general piece about your knowledge not transferring to timed scenarios: http://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2584/why-knowledge-is-not-enough.
  
  I may write a more specific one about what 'timing issues' really mean, but for now everything in the above piece applies.
• nye8870 Alum ⭐

  July 2015 1749 karma

  Yes to the fundamentals. But I do feel that incorporating those and adding an element of urgency may prove a useful cocktail. Certainly this is not actual advice I'd swear by or even recommend. This is just my own way of trying to find something/anything to help break through plateaus. So I may share later on down the road that this was an epic failure and waste of time.
• Pacifico Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 8021 karma

  @"Jonathan Wang" @DumbHollywoodActor and @c.janson35 are all absolutely correct. The fundamentals will lead to solving most timing issues. And timing strategies are definitely a crutch, but I think they have one important role in at least the beginning of your prep: to beat into you that every question is worth the same amount of points. Those 5 minutes you spend on one question that in the end you are only 50/50 on your AC is taking away from those 5 easy questions you could have seen, finished in the same amount of time and answered correctly with 100% certainty. That kind of trade off likely puts you in a higher score band. So because your timing is trapping you in time sinks I would definitely follow the prep advice mentioned above to develop a feel for timing and also learn to just let go at a certain point.
• DumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 7468 karma

  @"Jonathan Wang” I disagree. I understand (and agree with) your overall thinking here that timing is essentially a direct result of your confidence in your fundamentals, but your posts in other places, particularly your videos, say you've only used POE on11 out of 25 times during a timed test. That is a timing strategy. Furthermore, in PT 69, JY’s videos all show JY moving on after a 1:20 and coming back at the end. You can call it confidence all you want, but at the end of the day, you and he are making a strategic decision for the sake of time. That kind of a skill just doesn’t come about from finally hitting a magic threshold of “understanding the fundamentals”. It is a habit that needs to be developed somehow.
• c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 2398 karma

  @DumbHollywoodActor said:
  Furthermore, in PT 69, JY’s videos all show JY moving on after a 1:20 and coming back at the end. You can call it confidence all you want, but at the end of the day, you and he are making a strategic decision for the sake of time. That kind of a skill just doesn’t come about from finally hitting a magic threshold of “understanding the fundamentals”. It is a habit that needs to be developed somehow.
  

  @DumbHollywoodActor There is a difference, though, between using timing strategies to somehow "get faster" at the test and having full awareness of the constraints that a timed test puts on you. Yes, knowing when to cut your losses and move on is a decision made in the interest of saving time, but limiting yourself to 1:20 per question and moving on isn't going to help you complete the test faster if you're moving on without an answer (or a guess). This isn't to say that timing strategies are not useful, but they are definitely secondary.
  
  I would also argue that honing in your internal clock is a habit that is passively developed by doing timed practiced sections; if your goal is to finish the section (which isn't the goal for everyone), then you will eventually realize just by doing timed practice where your "sweet spot" is in terms of the maximum time you can allot per question and still finish.
• tanes256 Alum Member

  July 2015 2573 karma

  @"Jonathan Wang" you're the man! @c.janson35 and @DumbHollywoodActor im definitely gonna give this a try! I actually put the PT down last night and went pack to The Trainer and the Cambridge pkgs. I feel like we're hijacking this site with all The Trainer talk! Lol I'm also gonna go through the new problem sets. The explanations are golden! @nye8870 hang in there. We got this! @Pacifico I figured I needed to go back to the basics. I was spending way too much time deciding between the last two answer choices. I also have to read more than once to fully understand before even finding conclusion, support, flaw, etc. I definitely have to make myself just move on! Thanks guys! Love the support in here!
• 1 Like

  DumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 7468 karma

  Haha @tanes256 I wouldn’t worry about too much Trainer talk. @"J.Y. Ping” has given a full throated endorsement of The Trainer. And Mike Kim’s has given similar endorsements of 7Sage. A whole big family here
• 1 Like

  DumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 7468 karma

  @c.janson35 said:
  I would also argue that honing in your internal clock is a habit that is passively developed by doing timed practiced sections;
  

  It could be passively developed by doing timed practice sections, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will. People get stuck in bad habits. An effective way to get rid of bad habits is to replace them with good habits. To say that practicing that skill is unnecessary seems illogical to me.
• c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 2398 karma

  @DumbHollywoodActor said:
  To say that practicing that skill is unnecessary seems illogical to me.
  

  I never said that practicing that skill is unnecessary; in fact I think it is absolutely necessary. But I think that skill is inherently developed and practiced by going through timed practice. Yes, you may have to consciously think of timing when starting to go through preptests, but doing so before you master the fundamentals is putting the cart before the horse. Eventually you will be forced into the realization that the only way to finish a section is to not spend 3 minutes on every hard question you come to, and this forced realization will force you to get rid of your bad habits and replace them with good habits. Butttttttttt, this debate may have just veered off into logomachy territory lol; I feel like we think the same things and are just expressing them in different ways.
• DumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 7468 karma

  @c.janson35 said:
  this debate may have just veered off into logomachy territory lol; I feel like we think the same things and are just expressing them in different ways.
  

  I think you’re probably right. This LSAT tends to bring out a lot of logomachy!
• 1 Like

  c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 edited July 2015 2398 karma

  @DumbHollywoodActor said:
  I think you’re probably right. This LSAT tends to bring out a lot of logomachy!
  

  @DumbHollywoodActor haha true that! And shoutout to dictionary.com word of the day for finally giving me a useful (if slightly pretentious) word lol
  
• nicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐

  July 2015 7965 karma

  @tanes256 said:
  My BR score leads me to believe that there's still room for improvement with fundamentals.
  

  Excellent analysis! You're 100% correct

  @c.janson35 said:
  After all, high scorers don't finish sections early because they have great timing strategies or because they can read quickly, it's because they have the requisite command of the fundamentals.
  

  OP, watch some videos of JY/JWang doing LR sections. You don't finish a whole section and go -0 in ~20 minutes by having tricks, but rather mastery.
  
  This thread is inspiring me. Mastery is always the goal, in every phase of prep!

  @nye8870 said:
  Once you collect around 25, make this set of sheets a "drilling" document. Now here comes the interesting part...set a timer for 1 min 20 sec and redo the questions under this challenging condition.
  

  This sounds like a great idea! You guys are awesome!

  @DumbHollywoodActor said:
  The KEY is that when the timer hits 1:20, take a guess, circle the question and MOVE ON (but vow to come back).
  

  Love this—training your internal clock. I think it's important to develop this temporal sense, but with mastery, methinks this becomes unnecessary. Is that, by definition, a crutch? Well, I think it is still useful to gauge your level of mastery against a temporal standard. After all, if your ankle is broken, you NEED a crutch! But once it's better, you stop using the crutch. Etc.
  
  

  @c.janson35 said:
  I would also argue that honing in your internal clock is a habit that is passively developed by doing timed practiced sections
  

  Yeah, this is true too. Early on (before I was doing full PT's) I would use a stopwatch to see how long I was really taking per question. But that's quite different from timed sections, per se.

  @c.janson35 said:
  @DumbHollywoodActor haha true that! And shoutout to dictionary.com word of the day for finally giving me a useful (if slightly pretentious) word lol
  

  Y'all just blew my mind. I hope that word shows up as a "term usage" Q in the Oct LSAT, somehow!
• 1 Like

  sabrina.schell5 Alum Member

  July 2015 16 karma

  I would assume that your issue is both timing and fundamentals. If you're taking that long to come to the correct answer, maybe you're not understanding the question as well as you should. As far as timing, I would start by simply moving on past questions that are taking you more than 1.5 minutes. It's better to not make it back to 2-3 questions than it is to not make it to half the section.