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How much do admissions committees really consider multiple LSAT scores?
LindsMitch
Alum Member
Hello all! I'm signed up for the September LSAT and have been testing in the lows 160s. It terms of preparation, I have completed 70% of the 7sage curriculum and have taken only 3 LSAT practice tests. I am already planning on taking the December LSAT because I am absolutely confident I can make at least a 168 merely by improving on LG, which is the part of the curriculum I have not gone over. I have also been missing around 3 questions in RC and around 8 across both sections of LR, so I know I could also make some improvements there.
Typically I would just say I'll withdraw from/cancel the September test, as I already know I plan to retake. However I am taking the LSAT abroad, as I'm in Europe at the moment (actually in a country that doesn't offer it, requiring me to fly to Paris to take the test). I made this whole plan several months ago, assuming I would be ready. Long story short, I'm not and I know that I am not performing at my score potential.
At this point, I can't get the money back on the flights/hotel/or test in Paris, so should I just go ahead and take the test, knowing I'll probably get a 162 or so? I am not planning on submitting my apps until January when the December results are out anyway. I've already read up quite a bit on whether the December LSAT is "too late" and have realized with a 170+ score, it really isn't. I also have read the policies of each school I plan on applying to in regard to multiple LSAT scores, and the general consensus seems to be they will consider the higher one, and give you the option of sending in an explanation if there is a big discrepancy between the scores.
Like all of us, it has been beat into my head to not take the LSAT until you feel ready for it. Is it irresponsible of me to just take it anyway and then explain the lower score away on my application?
Also, as an aside, I am now in a position where I could devote around 20-25 hours per week for the next two weeks to studying. I know predicting point improvement is hugely difficult, as it depends on the person, but do you think I would potentially raise my score another 3 points or so?
I really appreciate y'alls help. Just reading through the discussions here on 7sage is helpful, the community seems so genuinely helpful and pleased when other's succeed.
Comments
To me, the question is: What do you gain by taking in September. You have clearly not reached close to your potential, so why put a lower-than-ideal score on your record. It is not true that a lower score is completely disregarded. Someone with a 170 in one attempt is in a better position than someone with a 170 on a second or third attempt, all other things being equal.
While I agree with uhinberg, I don't think it'll come into too much consideration. It seems that you already have a bunch of sunk costs with the September LSAT, I suggest that you take it and see how the test environment is. There is no way to replicate that experience 100%, so maybe consider this as a trial run. I think there are more rewards to taking it at your stage than there are risks.
First, I just want to say, I wholeheartedly agree with @uhinberg. Couldn't have said it better myself.
To answer your question, it's hard to know just how much they consider it. There's probably an incredible amount of variables that come into play. Your reason for the low score is likely at the top of the list. Taking it before you were sufficiently prepared probably won't be a good reason in the admission committee's eyes.
And I know that there's a good reason you can select what GRE/GMAT scores to send to grad schools and not LSAT scores. It's because they want to see how many times you've taken and what score you got on those takes.
I think it's in your best interest to not take in September. You haven't even finished the curriculum yet and there's a lot of great stuff left to learn!
@uhinberg I suppose I really have nothing to gain except for the experience/familiarity, as I'll be testing at the same place in December. Though to be honest I don't know how important that really is for me personally, as I generally don't have test anxiety and being more familiar with the room is probably going to have 0 effect on my score.
I suppose I'm just in a quandary, as I am going to have to travel there anyway, regardless of whether I chose to take the test so I am tempted to just take it anyway. Which perhaps just seems foolish, I know.
It would be one thing if I absolutely knew for certain that these multiple scores with a possible 10 point discrepancy would play a negative role in how they evaluate my application, but I don't know that. I know that it certainly won't play a positive role...but perhaps it is just neutral.
Gaaaaahhhhh why did I do this to myself.
On the positive side, I do have high hopes for my ultimate score and do love the 7sage curriculum!
Most schools don't care about multiple scores. Yale seems to though.
but still, take the test when you're ready, don't just wing it. take it once and get it over with when you're ready
I often read on here some variation of people saying that multiple scores don't matter much. I've skimmed through about 4 law school admissions books, worked with a top LS consulting service, and I can assure you, regardless of whether schools average scores, having multiple (lower) scores will matter. Top schools seem to care a lot more, for what it's worth. While no one can reliably determine or quantify how much they matter, it's effects are not neutral -- it is going to be a negative. How big a knock against you? Probably not a big one at all. Still, I think it behooves everyone applying to law school to make sure their apps are as strong as possible.
The LSAT is one of the only tests that requires you to submit all scores. Again, they would not be interested in seeing all your scores if they didn't matter. Imagine if they asked to see all of your LORs. Even if they only counted your best one... Wouldn't that be a pretty reliable indicator they care about all of them to some extent?
Taking the LSAT as a test run is also a pretty bad idea. Here's a great article from a few years back JY wrote about whether or not to delay: https://7sage.com/lsat-final-stretch-withdraw-cancel-or-conquer/
You can look at interviews with admission deans from various law schools, and very few say that they completely ignore multiple scores. Yes, the highest score is given by far the most weight, but it is not true that lower scores are viewed as non-existent.
Just one small point @"Alex Divine" It's not the law schools that are demanding to see all scores, but LSAC who insists on releasing all of them.
Thanks for the info @"Alex Divine" and @uhinberg
I've been wondering whether or not to just take September to get a good idea of what I'll be facing on test day. I'm glad I read this thread before it was too late.
Alex, do you think the elimination of the 3 takes in 2 years rule will have any effect on how admissions view multiple scores?
Pass on sitting for the test. Keep on prepping for December. Don't let this hiccup convince you to settle for anything less than your maximum potential. But make that voyage to Paris and make the most of it. Afterall, Paris is always a good idea
Taking an LSAT you're certain you're not 100% ready for, not so much!
schools don't care since they just report your highest and that is what most interests them. but I will say that it matters I guess, in the sense that they may ask you in an interview about the lower score(s). if someone does get asked, they should just be honest.
I know my 2 crappy scores, once I get a better score, I'm just going to straight up tell them I studied more and not give them any BS, because it's the truth.
I'd like to know what @David.Busis thinks about multiple scores and how adcomms view it
Good question! No idea since the new rule of unlimited takes is so new. Probably not, I mean, schools are likely always going to have a proclivity for students with one high lsat score as opposed to multiple lower scores.
I recommend taking it when you're ready, especially since you want such a significant improvement. Since you have the potential to improve and so many tests left for practice until December, I would wait if I were you.
You should take more than 3 practice tests to gauge your score and to improve. I feel kind of confident about gauging my score only after getting a 167/168 three times in the last two weeks in varying conditions/locations. I've done 8 full, timed tests this month (but I'm a terrible procrastinator).
It's possible to get to a 168+ from the low 160s (or lower in my case) by improving on games (and gaining a few points in LR). I did it this month with lots of practice.
For me, the best way to improve LG sections was to drill them - complete each game/section timed. Watch JY's explanations. Review JY's logic lessons. I repeat each game until I finish it with 100% accuracy in under 5 minutes. That's how I went from about -8 to a -0 LG score almost every time. This took me longer than two weeks though. Taking a few weeks to go over ~60% of the Ultimate+ 7sage lessons definitely also helped.
If you choose to take the September test anyway, you'll have to have a better excuse than "I wasn't ready." Perhaps explosive diarrhea? Just kidding... But multiple scores won't sink you entirely if you improve when you retake. I know several people who took the LSAT two or three times and still got into Harvard - one took it 3 times (but had the benefit of a 3.9+ GPA) and another took the LSAT twice with a bottom 25th percentile GPA and had a score increase similar to what you described.
I really do appreciate everyone's feedback! I fully recognize the wisdom in taking it when you're ready and scoring consistently at your target score...and of course it is inarguable that an applicant with one high score is likely more favorable than one with a high and a low score.
AND YET I don't know why the stubborn little devil that lives within me just keeps whispering "take it, take it, take it."
I guess I have to go to Paris either way. My plan as of now is to just fully devote myself to studying, and see if I can inch my score up to a place that I wouldn't be embarrassed to have show up as the lower score on my app, if I do choose to take it. And if not, it just sets me up on a good path of solid studying until December.
So basically I'm saying...I'm delaying this decision haha
I attended a law school forum that had the Admissions Deans from all of the top 14 schools. The general sentiment among those deans was close to what Alex has been saying. The only point I make here is a small one that was shared at that forum. The LSAT is a predictive test for law schools (duh, right ?!
) They prefer one score because one score has the most "predictive value" to them (LSAT test takers would disagree in many cases, but that is here nor there). If there are multiple scores, it just creates uncertainty in the predictive value the LSAT has regarding an applicant who is applying to that particular law school. If you have a 152, a 161 and a 170 in respective tests, what are you to make of the predictive value of the LSAT? It becomes more difficult, and an admissions officer's discretion and interpretation is going to become much more of a variable in your application. Do you infer as an admissions officer that the 170 was the fluke and that 161 was probably more accurate? Do you infer that this applicant didn't think things through enough - twice - regarding their preparation for the LSAT? Would they require 3 tries to pass the bar exam? Hence, Alex's statement about the net effect of multiple LSAT scores is likely not going to be positive beyond the value of a higher score over your previous test.
However, the cynic in me also knows that law schools - for the lack of better words - are largely slaves to statistics due to US N&R ranking formulas. It only behooves them to disregard your lower LSAT score, and for rankings they always report your highest. So really, does multiple LSAT scores hurt you that much? Most likely not. Do you invite uncertainty and an element of potential discretion that may or may not favor you as an applicant with multiple LSAT score? Most likely. But do you take an LSAT even though you know you aren't at your higher/highest potential just because you can? Highly questionable.
Sounding like you really shouldn't take it. You have nothing to gain but everything to lose.
This is what @"Mike Spivey" wrote in a blog in June of this year
"Law schools do read files holistically and they do read/see every LSAT score/withdrawal/cancellation of each applicant. However, no matter what anyone says, the reality is that only the high score is submitted to the ABA and it is therefore the only score USWNR will ever see. Thus, the high score means everything and the only thing to a school's median LSAT and rankings, and all other scores/takes are meaningless for reporting purposes. Put in practical terms, it behooves an applicant to retake the LSAT if they feel like they haven’t reached their potential. This not a green light to take the test 6 or more times without regard to its effect on your application; an extreme amount of takes may indicate larger issues to an admissions office, but that’s an exceptionally rare case. For the vast majority of scenarios, to retake for a higher score presents all opportunity with no downside.
@stepharizona Yeah I had stumbled upon that too, which gave me hope that 2 scores isn't going to kill my application especially if one of them is really strong.
I would imagine if I were to have taken the September test already and gotten a less than stellar score that I felt was below my potential, I would be advised to retake in December, and would end up submitting two scores.
I suppose the major difference in my situation is that I would be going in in September already knowing I was going to retake in December. So ultimately ending up in the same situation of submitting two scores.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I hear the masses telling me to just skip September and go for December.
@"lindsey.e.mitchell" I'm in a pretty similar situation to yours. I'm signed up for September knowing that I still have a lot of room for improvement, and I'm already signed up for the December exam.
I understand the argument that a law school has access to all of your scores and, ceteris paribus, a 170 in one take may well be favorable to a 170 on a retake with a previous lower score.
However, I think this argument leaves out an important part of the equation: will there be any impact on your final LSAT score by taking in September?
Does anyone dispute that a 171 (no matter how many takes required to get there) is better than a 170 in one take? Is it possible that taking in September will boost your December score by one point or more?
In making my own decision, I came to the conclusion that taking in September will likely have a positive impact on my score in December. This is due to a combination of gaining familiarity with the test-day conditions (I'm also traveling to another country to take the exam) and the added pressure of studying for an exam that's 2 weeks away as opposed to 3+ months away.
Best of luck whatever you decide!
spivey da god
Just looked at HLS and seems like they updated their LSAT policy. Before they would consider the highest score but now it's:
Thoughts?
Honestly, I think that's how it's always been. I still think the highest score is going to carry the most weight, simply because it's what is reported. However, with the unlimited takes rule, I think Harvard is just making it clear that they will indeed consider all your scores.
that's how it's always been with harvard, and most schools though. they will consider all scores, but I still think they will just care most about the highest score. I feel like multiple scores (especially if there is a huge gap between scores like say a 145 and a 173) will be an interest of theirs in the interview process. but other than that, I still think the highest score will carry most weight no matter what.
I pray that I'm a one-and-done LSAT taker. #prepandpray
100% possible to do that. if you have to retake though, it's not a big deal. Once and done is the best though, I truly wish that would've been the case for me lol
Amen, brother. #prepandpray
I think you're gonna kill it this time, my man. 12 days until victory!!!!!
thanks. I'm def going to try my best. I'm not even nervous about it as I was for my other takes, I'm just like.. over this whole test at this point, ya know? lol
I feel you on that. I'm ready to get this thing out of the way so I can cry and stress out about law school exams
My 2 cents kind of goes against everyone else. If you are confident you can score in the 160s for the September lsat, then I would take it. Nothing can really prepare you for the conditions of test day, so getting your nerves knocked out before the Dec lsat may improve your score even more on top of your extra studying time. Let's say you get a 160 in September & then a 173 in December... the admissions committee isn't going to write you off because of a 160 on your first try. 4 attempts on the lsat would probably hurt your chances, but 2 tries? Highly, highly doubtful. Worse case scenario, they ask you about it during interviews. Good luck!
I'll just tell you what I'm doing and you can take it or leave it. I am in the same boat, only about 65% through the curriculum, not even through logic games yet. I will take the exam twice. My diagnostic was 153 back in June. In September I hope to score around 160. I will finish the curriculum by end of September, using Oct./Nov. exclusively for practice tests, drills, and review. I consider December my second and last chance (Feb. just too late in the admissions cycle in my opinion), where I hope and expect to reach my potential (165-170). The September exam will give me insurance against unforeseen events (death in family, car wreck, catastrophic snow storm, etc.) in December in that I will at least be able to get into my safety schools. Law schools know this test is learnable so given that rankings only consider the highest reported score, it is no secret and not a significant negative to have two different scores, as long as they are not 20+ points apart (which two months apart is strange enough to warrant some questions).
I've taken it three times with a fourth on horizon for Sept; I've scored terrible with my highest score a 152, but I've improved each time - PT'ed the PT80 and PT81 at 160 and 162 respectively - missed 0 on both the LG sections. Does it look bad - I'm not sure, maybe it does. But, should I let a low score(s) not allow me to potentially become a lawyer - I think "no" and am willing / able to demonstrate that I'm more than just a test score.
I agree. I have 2 crappy scores on my record already and I don't really care tbh. I'm going to be up front with adcomms if it is brought up in an interview or something and just simply state that I tried harder for my last attempt.
@LindsMitch I am in a similar position. (I am from Canada, but currently living/working in Hong Kong). I will be applying to one of the top Canadian schools as I want to practice in Canada (I did my undergrad in the US). I didn't discover 7sage until more recently. I am signed up for the Sept LSAT, and will re-take in Dec if my score isn't where I want it to be. I'm not over-thinking it too much. I'll take it this Sept and we'll see. If I need to re-take it, then so be it. Honestly, I have really enjoyed studying through 7sage and I don't see re-taking the LSAT as a negative (personally and application-wise). Our GPA and overall experience is considered. I am very confident with those two. Everyone's situation is different, as you can see from all the comments. Follow your instincts. Go with your gut. Et bonne chance!
Thank you to all who commented!! I think I will take it and not overthink it.
At the end of the day, I know that either in September or December I will have a score I feel confident in...and it's true, I can just go with honesty if I were to be asked to explain a large difference in scores and say I just buckled down for the December take.
And call me crazy but I am kind of pumped for the test! I actually love taking tests haha.
Hi all. I exceptionally rarely come over here but I've had a number of people call/contact me, especially after the HLS wording change. Law School's only care about your high LSAT. That includes every law school I know of including every school mentioned in this thread. There are individual applicant outliers (people who take an absurd number of times, cancel an absurd number of times, etc), because that gives data on what kind of student they may be at your law school. But if you are the dean of admissions at X school, and you have an applicant with a 150 and a 170 and you average that and thus deny them because you say "well they have a 160" and all of your competitors with medians of 168/169 are admitting them, because only the 170 goes toward ranking. Guess what? You will soon be fired. Hence, high score reins the supreme entity. I hope this helps!
Mike
Love you, spivey!
I'm not sure if you will see this but I'm curious on your opinion ~
What do you think counts as too many/absurd times? 4+?
Thanks Mr. Spivey.
I honestly think there should be a stickied announcement on 7Sage with this information. It gets asked so frequently, and there is enough good evidence to dispel it, that such a post would be helpful.