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ETA: For work, while I prep, I have been working with a friend working for a start-up business. Which does energy consulting and uses a lot of the same skills. I work <40 hours but the work is so much less stressful. No fire drills which is what nearly drove me insane. So the work I do is still relevant and stimulating.
Thank you for doing this ! I love this forum for this. I have a question about applying . I am currently a Court Clerk for a judge and have worked for various judges. I originally was going to use two professors and one of the judges I worked for my references. However, one of the professors got back to me with a letter and she basically summarized my resume and added a few of her own points. Obviously, this is not a letter to submit to law schools. I have been out of school for two years, and these two professors were the only ones who I had a personal relationship with enough to ask for letters and I am pretty sure none of the others really remember me that well. Do you think it would be ok to use two of the judges and one professor instead? SMU is my top school of choice and both of these judges are well known in Dallas.
Hey, no problem. I figured it could be of some help. Especially since I read a lot of second-hand BS on here from people who never stepped foot in NYC at an iBank, Law firm, or law school.
Well -- you shouldn't have seen the letters (if they were indeed LORs), but that aside
I promised I'd be as honest as I could be in this AMA, so the "well known judge" thing it isn't going to matter that much. I'd probably just use the letters from the profs. Better to have a boring-run-of-the-mill LOR from a professor who liked you, than one from a judge who probably won't give it the due time.
You also mention you had a personal relationship with the profs which is sine qua non when asking for letters of rec. If you'd like, try your hand at asking the judge. I just can assure you that unless you did some stellar work, it will be generic. Probably even more so than the one you saw.
Personally, I'd stick with the letter from the prof who knew me and essentially re-listed my resume, as you say. Hopefully there's some semblance in there that you were a good student and all of the rest.
If you were close with the judge -- which it didn't sound like from your post-- then maybe ask. Otherwise, again, I think the letters you have will be just fine.
Good luck!
Hey Alex, I was curious about the salary of iBank. I saw those salary reports from top MBA schools (most of their students went to iBank), but it shows their average are around 130,000 a year. seems this is fewer than working for top law firms. So whats your opinion about this?
Bonuses tend to be a lot BIGGER. So the base salary, bonus, signing bonus put you right into that 180k-200k bracket.
Especially in the in the first 3 or so years, you'll probably make more money. Then it tends to even off between mid-level big law associates and ibank associates.
My opinion: If you like finance more than law, follow that path. The money will equal out to be about the same. Lawyers are generally the scribes for the ibankers, who are running the actual deals. So that's something to consider, too.
Then again, it's all about skill set. I just got so bored with numbers and making Powerpoints that I figured I'd give big law a go. Also, I don't have an MBA, yet. I am looking into dual degrees, however.
tl:dr Overall: An MBA at a top bulge bracket vs. Associate at top firm is making about the same after bonus and other compensation.
hey Alex!! thanks for the information! however I still have a question, as you may familiar about the dual degree. I have noticed like NW's MBA-JD dual degree, all of their graduates go to law firms instead of iBanks, whats your opinion about this? Thanks!
Ditto on this question. I see a lot of the top programs offer sometime of JD/MBA program. Have you ever considered doing this?
JD-MBA are kind of hard to explain. They are the only degree for which there is no true job for... So most end up going to firms and some receive bonuses for their additional degree. MBA's can help law associates understand the business side of law a lot better, but overall, my opinion is that they aren't really worth it. One doesn't seem to help the other. Better to pick one (MBA/JD) and follow through. There's exceptions. But not many.
My end goal is working at a Hedge Fund/PE Big Law practice group and this is where I think both degrees could help me. Otherwise, my opinion is that you're paying for skills you'll likely never use. Either the MBA or the JD.
Yeah, at one point I considered it. I mean, like I said, there are no jobs where both vastly differently degrees are required or arguably even helpful. That is why you see so many JD/MBAs end up at law firms anyway.
I think they go to the firms over banks because lawyers have a reputation for being bad a numbers/math and business in general. It's also just the easier path. A lot more challenging to get hired at an iBank. They also might just naively think it might help them -- in some cases it might. But again, I don't think it is worth the opportunity cost, at least not anymore.
Lastly, dual JD/MBAs are sort of a dying breed. Less and less enrollment overall. I think it speaks to the bygone days where JDs were seen as a more versatile degree.
I actually did considered and took the GMAT exam. But Alex points out what I worried about. It's a huge investment(time and money), except some school let you graduate in three years for both degree, but almost every school gave no discount for the tuition, the total fee is MBA's tuition+ JD's tuition. And finally, as Alex said, you can only pick one path to go, ended up in a same position in a same firm as JD graduates. Also, because you have to do the both degree in the same time as one degree, but time is limited. You have to be smart enough and maybe sleep less to have a competitive GPA as others. Some business school and law school are not in the same campus, the commute time and less choice of curriculum also adds up difficulties. So just from my point of view, it's a good combination of degrees, but I am just not confident in myself in choosing this way.
So you think about that too? what's your opinion about this?
I really don't think they are good investments or ideas. Like I said, the skills where you would use both MBA/JD jobs just don't really exist. I'm sure someone's uncle's brother has one... lol
There's jobs where they certainly can help, but they tend to be executives and COO/CEOs Hedge Fund Managers, that type of deal. Big Consulting firms.... Just things that are nearly impossible to get right out of school with those degrees.
Thanks for your insights!
Happy to help!
Hey Alex thanks for the reply ! Yep just realized that a bit too late about the letter of recommendation so I wont make that mistake again with the others. With both judges I have known them for almost two years and also have a personal relationship with them (even attending parties at their house and being friends on Facebook). Would that change anything? I definitely have a reputation of being a super hardworker both at work and back when as I was in university.
If the judges will write more highly of you and can expand beyond the "resume-esque" tone of the professor, sure. I honestly don't think it will make a difference if I'm being honest. It's just if you know for sure your other LOR was pretty....blah.... and you have a chance to get another better one, go for it!
My point being is that who writes the letter rarely helps. I know students like to think if they get one from the school president, or District Judge it will change much. From what I've read, heard, and seen time and time again, it does not.
Thanks for doing this! Could you elaborate more on the benefits of having a law degree if the end goal isn't law in any specific shape or form (biglaw, academia, public interest, etc), i guess more specifically, why not just go for an MBA or even MA/MF in Finance kinda thing instead of JD, especially in your case or end goal? Also, what made you decide to put everything on hold and try for law despite the opinion that lawyers are more or less 'scribes' to ibankers and doing more of the tedious work (sidenote, that's not the first time i've heard that, my finance friends are always saying the same thing!)
Thanks for the advice I totally agree.
My pleasure. I would just like to preface by saying that I meet a lot of hardworking and motivated 0Ls who just have no idea what a corporate lawyer does. I also meet several of those who want to be investment bankers and know little about what the jobs entail.
I also just want to lay out that when I write on these forums, I often use poor grammar, spelling and just try to get messages written as quickly as possible, and sometimes that leads to confusion. Which, of course, is my completely my fault.
With that out of the way,
Question 1) Benefits of having a law degree if your end goal isn't law specific? There's JD advantage jobs at banks for compliance. It helps if you want to run a business. Gov't regulatory agencies. If you don't want to be a lawyer in some capacity, probably shouldn't go to law school. Get a library card and start reading, lmao.
I think I might have misrepresented myself here a bit. I haven't put anything on "hold," I worked in banking for the work experience, and to learn about finance. I learned a lot about myself for those 2.5 years there. Especially about what actual "big lawyers" do and what associate level ibankers do. I had great mentors and some shitty ones. However, I had always planned on the law school route because it fits my skill sets/ personality better. And thanks to my wonderful mentors for instilling that in me.
I can sit like a monkey and type Excel spreadsheets and make Powerpoints/ "Pitches", or I can sit in front of Microsoft Word and go over redlines and review thousands of documents. I know myself well enough that I'll do better as a scribe. Just about knowing yourself. Know thy self!
I'm going to over simplify a few things here; the following things are not though:
Big Lawyers are scribes. People covet these jobs, never having stepped foot in a firm. And if you ask most people who want to do [sic] "big law" they have no idea what the hell that even means. They probably picture Suits or some TV show. I've seen the work my friends in big law do and it's work that doesn't even require a law school degree. A class on Blue Booking, WestLaw, and a semester of Legal Research & Writing and you'll be good to go. The rest is kind of trial by fire. And to be an analyst, you need to know how to use Excel and Powerpoint. Nothing I learned in college helped at all. Computer classes I took in middle school did though, haha.
But still, these jobs pay a lot. And good luck finding a job making 180k under 30 in NYC. Good luck with the hours, too.
Question 2) Why not just get an MBA? I've thought about a dual program. Kind of leaning against it. I should have been more careful with my wording when I said my end goal was being some Axe Capital Hedge Fund Guy. It's kind of a pipe dream. Maybe. I'd like to and I do enjoy investing itself, but actual iBanking at a firm.... Not for me.
My goals for now are to get into a top law school, good scholarship, and possibly try out the big law thing. I figure I know the true nature of the work, I'll fit right in, lmao. However, one of the biggest things working in finance taught me is to keep an open mind. So I'm kind of going into law school with practical goals, but nothing set in stone. I do, however, want to be an attorney.
Hope that answers everything. If you'd like me to elaborate on anything more specific, let me know.
@"Alex Divine" I apologize if this has been explained already, but what generally do corporate attorneys do (I know this is a broad question so its ok if you give me a brief answer)?
I'm very curious about corporate law, but have no experience in it. Are the attorneys running the numbers or are the bankers/companies? I've had a bit of trouble painting a solid picture of it.
Hey @"Alex Divine". Besides networking and OCI, how does one get a job in investment banking or getting entry level analyst position in a major bank?
At large firms there are many different practice groups. One of the most common would be mergers and acquisitions. (M&A) Simply put, M&A is principally the agreement between parent and target (or buyer and seller) in which one company either acquires another or merges with another. When you're doing a "deal," the goal is to arrive at an agreed upon document that both parties sign. Once that document signs, the lawyers are then in charge of closing the deal.
So when companies merge a very crucial document is what is known as a TERM sheet which is an agreement to negotiate and sign a merger agreement, which will contain a basic list of key terms like purchase price, type of consideration (i.e., cash or stock or both) These term sheets are very important because ultimately they need to be perfect before the deal is done.
What a junior associate’s role would be at a large firm would typically look something like this:
1) Review and revise the term sheet to make sure all defined terms are used in the agreement, to make sure all defined terms are defined, to make sure all section references refer to the right sections to make sure there are no typos, errors, etc. It’s tedious as it sounds.
2) Coordinating comments and review from specialists and making sure they input any changes that need to be made to documents and memos.
3) Due diligence/Doc Review: This will involve reviewing all of the corporate documentation seller provides and looking for potential issues. And when the problems arise, you need to call whoever, wherever, and get it resolved. This can mean being on the phone all day. This is actually one of the reasons I’m told associates work so late because they are on the phone all day doing shit like this. Then they have to work to do the actual changes at night.
Partners and more senior associates are more involved with numbers. However, firms have accountants and CEOs who deal with that type of stuff. You'll rarely have to worry about numbers as a junior/mid-level. Partners handle the deal making/negotiations.
Hope this helps!
I got my analyst position from a mixture of good grades, hard work, recommendations, my resume, and luck.
OCI for law schools won't be where you find iBanking jobs. As a matter of fact, if you want to work in iBanking a JD can very much be a scarlet letter on your resume. Get an MBA from a top program and work your way up from associate to VP, etc.
If you're just looking for an entry analyst job, craft a resume, and do a lot of research. The interviews are no joke. Understand the industry very well. They'll smell any bs a mile a way. Also, network like crazy. The thing is, without prior experience, an ivy degree, you really got to know the industry. I can't stress that enough.
This website does a pretty accurate job of describing how to get there:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/get-a-banking-job/
Entry level analyst jobs are hard to get, but if you're smart you can nail it!
Good luck
@"Alex Divine" Thanks for the response. M&A has always seemed interesting to me so your comments really helped!
When were planning on starting law school? I'm just curious.
Awesome! I am definitely most interested in M&A deal work just because of the business nature. Sadly, there are 20 points to the deal and unless you're a partner you'll likely be responsible for none. Still though, maybe I'm more of a PE type of guy.... Who knows. That's why I'm excited for law school to see if there's something new that interests me!
Not sure I understand if you mean when I am planning or when was I*
I was* planning on starting right after I graduated (2015) I got my job and realized it was smart of get some work experience.
When do I plan to matriculate now? Next cycle most likely. LSAT score / offers pending, haha.
@"Alex Divine" I originally was a management major but felt like I could never find my nitch in business so corporate/business law seems like where my fit may possibly be. I did pretty well in my business law class and felt pretty comfortable with what they were doing in there (I know its not the same as law school but I never was lost with the concepts which gives me hope that I may enjoy it).
Ahhh, I see. So it sounds like you found the right path for you then. I kind of went to undergrad set on law school so I decided Economics-Political Science, Philosophy would be the best fit. This way I'll be a little useless at everything.
@"Alex Divine" Yeah when I transferred to A&M, I had too many credits to get into the business school so I went Poli-sci which was a blessing because I found law/politics fascinating (which is one of the other law diciplines I'm considering) so it has helped me but the legal side of business still remains enticing.
The legal side of business, enticing? Hmm... I suppose for some it can be. Hope you like contracts and term sheets
I'm glad everything worked out for you though and you ended up where you were supposed to be.
Haha when I visted SMU, I got to sit in a contracts class and said "Sorry to put you through a boring class." I guess I'll find out how much I truly like it, but hey that's why we go to school right?
Haha! I suppose. I think of it as means to an end. I hope I enjoy law school at least much as undergrad. Looking forward to learning new things that I might actually use when I get a job. Unlike most things from undergrad, haha.