"The Little Law School That Could"

nicole.hopkins

Interesting commentary on the cost of law school, purpose vs. payoff, and why anyone would want to open a new law school ...

"What happens when you lower tuition and admissions standards, then let cowboys and single mothers hit the books? UNT Dallas College of Law aims to find out."

http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2015/may/unt-dallas-college-of-law-little-law-school-that-could

ddakjiking

Too many law schools currently open. If the current market of applicants continues to decline or stagnates for a couple years, there could be a few low ranked schools closing.

nicole.hopkins

And/or selling—for instance, Texas A&M buying Wesleyan Law out in Ft. Worth!

ddakjiking

Yeah there's been a good amount of buying/selling and merging just so schools could stay alive.

VegMeg55

I empathize with the intent of opening the law school though. I think there needs to be more innovation addressing the problems of high student debt and market saturation. I think it's a pretty solid idea to have professors teach exclusively without conducting research. If they lowered the cost of tuition, they lower the amount of potential student debt which in turn lowers legal fees and makes legal assistance more accessible to a wider range of people. It seems great in theory but I wonder how it will be in practice.

ddakjiking

I really do think that it would have to start with the ABA. Unlike other professions (medicine, pharmacy, etc) it's pretty hard to start up a new medical or pharmacy school because their respective board group limits the number of schools that can operate in order for all current graduates to find jobs. ABA on the other hand has been allowing schools to open left and right and the supply for lawyers have largely surpassed the demand. The schools are taking advantage by hiking up tuition every so years.

Out of all the recent law schools opening, UCI by far the success story. To debut at #30 is a feat in itself. Interested to see what the future has in store for these schools.

emli1000

@ddakjiking said:
Too many law schools currently open. If the current market of applicants continues to decline or stagnates for a couple years, there could be a few low ranked schools closing.

Right on point!

TeddyKGB

There's so much discussion on how mind-boggling it is that the law school racket defies basic economics: demand is dwindling, but price is skyrocketing. I don't think there are too many law schools per se. I think that there are too many lower-ranked schools flooding the market with debt-laden graduates, and when you have 200-300k in debt, you can't exactly practice Small Law.

We're all likely to witness a massive shutdown of law schools. But, maybe, there will be a change in how law schools operate. The system simply has to reflect input vs. output to some degree. If one goes to Harvard or Georgetown or Berkeley, then paying 200-300k provides a serious opportunity to repay the note. On the other hand, if one goes to Florida Coastal and takes on 200-300k, then they're just screwed.

So I for one commend UNT Dallas Law for making a change to the status quo. They're providing an affordable opportunity with realistic expectations.

ddakjiking

I didn't realize UNT Dallas' tuition was so cheap compared to many of the public law schools in CA. All the UC schools are over $40,000 annual for in-state tuition!

jim-1

The reason law school is so expensive is the same reason all schools are expensive - largely, it's because the government is paying the bill. Or, at least the interest for a while. Someone commented that demand dwindles while supply increases yet, cost goes up. That's what happens when the government gets involved and short circuits market forces.

As for the ABA, they stubbornly refuse to accredit an online law school. This site is just one reason they should reverse that policy.

ddakjiking

I would rightly argue that ABA should instead strengthen requirements to remain ABA-accredited.

nicole.hopkins

@TeddyKGB said:
So I for one commend UNT Dallas Law for making a change to the status quo. They're providing an affordable opportunity with realistic expectations.

Word to this—don't forget, Jimmy McGill (Better Call Saul/Breaking Bad as Saul Goodman) got a correspondence law degree from American Samoa Law School and (spoiler alert!) he's offered a partner-track position following his dumpster diving/class action suit against a nursing home conglomerate ... ;-)

Seriously, though—there's this hilarious notion that where you went to law school 100% determines where you go in your law career. False. Going to a prestigious law school is by no means a sufficient condition for success as an attorney. Life is much more varied, interesting, and complex than that. I'm so over this mindset. It remains to be seen how the folks at UNT Dallas will fare in the job market, but these are likely people who want to either remain in DFW or head to the smaller cities in TX (Abilene, Waco, Longview—those kinds of places y'all likely never heard of)—they're not aiming for pedigree, just for a legal career. Having less debt opens many doors in its own right.

emli1000

@"jim-1" Law school is expensive because.. well.. it's a business... and their main purpose is to take all of our money and leave us in debt until we're 50+ years old lol

jim-1

@emli1000 which they would never be able to do without the government enabling them.

J.Y. Ping

@jim-1 I agree that the government is partially at fault for the legal education bubble. I'm paraphrasing / quoting myself from a discussion more than a year ago but it's still true: Bottom tier law schools are able to exist because of a financial subsidy from the government. The US Dept. of Education (DoE) will lend you (US Citizen/Green Card holder) money no questions asked to go to law school. They don't care what law school or what your prospects are of paying back the loans (in other words your post graduation employment prospects). It's insane - lender in their right mind would lend without calculating your potential for returning their money?

These law schools market themselves as helping you to "fulfill your dreams" to "be a lawyer" and "get rich". In reality our legal economy has far fewer demand for new lawyers than supply. But hey, why would these law schools care? The DoE gives you money, you hand it over to the law school, they give you back a worthless diploma (after torturing you for 3 years), and they're done. Good bye. What about the $170k debt? Well, that's between you and Uncle Sam, who will never let you declare bankruptcy on it.

It's a shitty system that subsidies shit law schools and burns people who don't understand that legal education is largely an investment not a consumption. It ultimately burns all tax payers because that's where the governments got the money to lend in the first place. It's a system that simultaneously makes some people rich: the deans of these sketchy law school and the shadowy private equity firms that own them. This is called socialized losses and privatized benefits.

For a much for detailed and cogent analysis:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/08/the-law-school-scam/375069/