141 Diagnostic to 165+ or 170's, Is This Realistic?!

cm214998

Hey Everyone! I'm new to the 7sage community and I'm so happy that I signed up! I took a 2 and half month classroom course this past summer which ended 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, it wasn't as helpful as I had hoped and I didn't increase my score at all (considering I didn't take that many prep tests). However, since beginning the 7sage curriculum, it seems as if I have learned far more then in 2 weeks then I did in that entire course. Wish I would've started this earlier!

Anyways, my diagnostic test was a 141, which I was extremely disappointed about. I took a second PT after a month and a half and scored a 133 because my instructor told me to just focus on the first half of every section. I haven't taken another PT since. I plan on taking the June 2017 LSAT. I've read on various forums that it's impossible to break the 170s with such a low diagnostic (personally, now that I have 7sage, I don't think it is). However, with dedicated and deliberate prep, realistically speaking, is it possible for me to score in the high 160's (165-169) or even break 170's with about a year prep? (Sept. 2017 LSAT).

And, anyone who has done this, how long did you study? How many hours a week, on average? What other resources beside 7sage? How did you schedule your prep/time management? Did you have a study buddy? Any other commitments besides prep? (I'm a full time senior in undergrad). How did you avoid burnout? Did you plateau or hit a ceiling, and how did you break through?

Sorry for the long question, just trying to set realistic expectations so that I can set some effective study goals. Thanks for your help!!

tanes256

@mclaughlinchris21 it is certainly possible. Obviously it'll be easier for you to crack the 160s than the 170s. My diagnostic was also a 141. Unfortunately my journey in preparing for the LSAT is not common so I'll spare you that info. Hopefully more people will come along and share with you their schedules and such. You might want to pick up The LSAT Trainer if you want something to supplement 7 Sage. It is around $40-$45. The LR and RC sections were great for me. I prefer 7 Sage for LG but I did pick up a few things. I picked up the book because I was having trouble with the memory method for RC and I was also looking for a different perspective on a few LR questions. The book is an easy read. It doesn't feel like a traditional textbook read. I don't think you could go wrong with it. I wouldn't go through them both at the same time but you'll have no problems using them both to prepare for the test. Last thing, don't take any PT until you have completed the course and have thoroughly grasped logic!

Cant Get Right

Yeah, that's totally possible. The courses who say it's impossible are the ones telling you that three months of studying is all you need to reach your potential. They have a huge incentive for people to believe this, because if it turns out otherwise, then that means their course is kind of a rip off.

anyone who has done this, how long did you study?

About a year and 4 months.

How many hours a week, on average?

30-40

What other resources beside 7sage?

None really.

How did you schedule your prep/time management?

Went through the curriculum slow and steady. Then PT'd, BR'd, and analyzed the results to see what I needed to study before taking a new practice test, studied it, took a new practice test. Be flexible with scheduling. You have to focus on quality studying and keeping a strict schedule can force you to relax on quality to keep up with an arbitrary quantity.

Did you have a study buddy?

Lots of them. Once you start PTing, check out the BR Groups!

Any other commitments besides prep?

I was fortunate on this one, full time LSAT student.

How did you avoid burnout?

By being conscious of it and allowing myself time off without guilt.

Did you plateau or hit a ceiling

Constantly

and how did you break through?

Maintaining disciplined, high level study strategies, trusting in the process, and with a little help from my friends.

danielznelson

I've been studying for about two years, and after about a year, I had increased my score by over twenty points. I don't think I'm a rarity in this regard, and if I am, it's because I had studied longer for the LSAT than have most other people.

I really took my time studying. I'm not sure my per week average, but I don't think it was 40, or maybe even 30 hours a week. I probably spent 20-25 a week in the beginning and near test dates, with a significant drop (maybe 1-2 hours a day) during the rest of my period. I've had a full-time job for most of my time studying - a job I enjoy - and I married right around my beginning months of studying. I wanted to enjoy this unique time before going to law school, despite being very, very hungry about finally going.

I initially used PowerScore, which I wouldn't recommend, and used the LSAT Trainer as well, which I found somewhat redundant given what I had already learned from 7Sage and PS. For the most part, I've stuck exclusively with 7Sage and with the Manhattan Prep forums.

I've hit very long plateaus, I've been burnout once or twice, and I've had plenty of doubts about my capabilities on the test. Expect a lot of random dips, and perhaps some sudden surges. Expect to engage in psychological warfare against the test - a war that is best fought with a constant awareness of the inevitable struggles and unpredictable hiccups of the test and with social interaction with others taking the test. Once you've finished the 7Sage curriculum, BR group calls are excellent for the later.

A 20+ score increase is no small feat, but one's cap isn't so much determined by some number increase, but by the material learned. Your lower score simply means you have more to learn. It does not in any way indicate your ceiling.

With your mindset, you're in a really good spot. Your mentality is the first step to actually achieving the scores you mentioned.

Where did you read that breaking into the 170s is virtually impossible with a low diagnostic?? Again, your score doesn't predestine your ability to learn the inherent logic and language of the test. My gosh, some people...

Alejandro

My diagnostic was a 143 and my June LSAT score was a 167; and I wasn't exactly thrilled with that score. So the answer is yes, it is possible!

CalPoliSci

My diagnostic was 143 and my PT average is around 166 with a high score of 169. So yes it's possible.

Matt1234567

Yes, my diagnostic was 131, highest PT i hit a 166. I'm in the 160s now.

kazrah

Realistic?

No.

Possible?

Absolutely.

The reason it's not realistic is that for the majority of test takers it's very difficult to stay focused enough to get that high of an increase, especially as a senior in college, due to pressure to finish strong, making the best of your last year, and whatever personal things you have going on. However, if your study ethic is as enthusiastic as your post sounds, it's very possible to reach your desired score range, even from that diagnostic.

Personally, I've used many test prep materials ranging from PowerScore to Blueprint, and prepping with them resulted in an official score of 160 last year. Since that time, using 7sage for a few months taught me much more about the fundamentals of the test and now I PT around a 170, with a high of 176. In my opinion, I don't think there is any other resource necessary apart from 7sage and I'm very grateful to both the staff and the community.

Sprinkles

@danielznelson said:
My gosh, some people...

Haha, yeah. When I took PR back in 2014, the instructor told us the max potential we can expect out of our diagnostic is increasing by 10-15 points. Clearly the posts here prove otherwise. It will be a long tiring journey, but you can do it for sure

Alex

@mclaughlinchris21 said:
However, with dedicated and deliberate prep, realistically speaking, is it possible for me to score in the high 160's (165-169) or even break 170's with about a year prep? (Sept. 2017 LSAT).

It is 100% possible. There are numerous stories of those starting in the 140s eventually hitting the 160s or even in some cases the 170s. Sometimes all you need to do is find an LSAT course that works for you; and 7Sage has been that for many people.


With a year and plenty of hard work there is no reason you can't. Truly believe that and I guarantee you will hit your goal.

danielznelson

@montaha.rizeq *Sigh*... I had someone from Kaplan tell me something similar to this as well - this was after a proctored practice test at my university and hosted by Kaplan. The instructor claimed I should expect a five-point increase and that there was one student who worked "insanely hard" and was able to increase his score by fifteen points. I just took the September LSAT, and there is no way I scored only fifteen points above my diagnostic. At worst, it will be just under twenty, and that may only be because my diagnostic was polluted by a dozen bubbled-in answers for questions I never had time to get to. I imagine my true diagnostic was a point or two lower than what it was.

Whether I meet my current goals or not on the June test, I still plan to take in December, as I know I still have room to grow. Again, this ridiculous mindset that one's ceiling is somehow predetermined by one's diagnostic score is so flabbergastingly unsupported. Of course, this may be true in all practicality, since supposed experts seem to love feeding this bull to unsuspecting test takers. But your low score is at least primarily due to your lack of understanding of what's presented in the test. Of course you're going to perform relatively low if you have no exposure to the logic inherent in the LSAT, and there may be some people who will not do well on the test no matter how hard they try. But it's learnable - somewhat akin to learning a new language. Your intelligence and test-taking abilities play into the ease with which you are able to obtain certain scores, but even standoutish qualities of either is not necessary to do very, very well on the LSAT. I myself like to think I have proven that, and I'm know there are others on 7Sage alone who feel the same way.

I feel as if I'm a witness spreading the gospel of 7Sage. The PowerScore "Bibles" are practically heretical, and almost every other source for LSAT prep misleads individuals with dangerous, underlying assumptions about the test. I feel like every day, I'm fighting to keep people away from false teachers, and I can hardly take their foolishness anymore!!

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combsni

I started with a 147 and now I am PT'ing in the mid to high 160's. A lot of people who start off in the 140's get up to the 160's.

cm214998

Thank you for your advice everyone! You guys are very helpful and inspiring!

Q.E.D

It's plain to me that, above all, the LSAT tests literacy. I'm nobody, but I think a diagnostic under 160 belies some reading comp issues. I would devote some time to reading hard material.

Good luck!

Alex

@"◊ Q.E.D. ◊" said:
but I think a diagnostic under 160 belies some reading comp issues.

I don't think that's true at all. I missed a TON of logic games questions on my diagnostic (21 or 22 to be exact) so clearly it wasn't reading comprehension.

The LSAT does test literacy, but if that was the main focus of the test at all then anyone with the reading skills and lexicon of a 7th grader could get a 170+

Also stats show that English majors, on average, don't score very well on this test. Yet, Math/Physics majors, on average, score the highest.

Q.E.D

I say that because the answers to a large majority of the questions in RC and LR are obvious if you understand them. I also bombed LG, missed like 12-15, so I can relate to that.

I expected your reaction, and I think it comes from a simplistic idea of reading comp, no offense. To understand a word is one thing. It's different to understand a sentence, still more different to understand a passage. When I say "reading comp," I'm talking about something most college-educated people actually suck at doing, not to mention 7th graders. I've noticed English majors deal mostly with literary art (fiction, poetry) and not very dense material, so your report of their performance doesn't surprise me.

But you're right, it's not all about English. Perhaps I made my point too strong. Still, I'm confident that being a good reader counts for a lot more than people think. I have noticed remarkable improvement in a friend of mine whose sole LSAT prep until now has been reading.

Maybe 160 is the wrong place for a reading comp threshold. A score of 140-150 still has "reading comp" written all over it, something the test taker needs to address in order to bridge the gap to 170.

Like I said, I'm no one. It's easy for idiotic randos to dole out advice on the Internet. Don't worry too much about my silly opinions. I just think some of these people struggling with the test could gain a lot from reading. 'Depends on what you read, of course. Gladwell, for example, is a popular author whose writing is not difficult enough to repay the time.

Good luck to all. 'Great folks here.

cm214998

Maybe 160 is the wrong place for a reading comp threshold. A score of 140-150 still has "reading comp" written all over it, something the test taker needs to address in order to bridge the gap to 170.

I think you're right about this. I absolutely agree that reading comprehension skill deficiency could be a potential problem for me. I'm a voracious reader and I have always prided myself on my reading and writing abilities. However, I noticed that many of the students in my previous LSAT course who were scoring in the mid to high 160s were excellent and proficient readers. They read very dense material, majored in tough and analytical majors with heavy reading and writing, or attended very prestigious undergraduate institutions that, I assume, prepare students well in this regard.

Perhaps this is why I often hear the "read the economist" or "scientific American magazine" recommendations on various LSAT forums. I'll have to look reading a lot more sense material from now on, perhaps that'll help.

On a side note, 2 weeks into the 7sage curriculum, I have already seen MASSIVE improvements. My timing is spot on and I've gotten more then 80 percent of all questions I've worked on correct. It's like literally, something just clicked overnight. 7sage is magic. I'm so pissed I didn't start it earlier and I'm especially pissed I paid almost 2000 bucks for a course that didn't even help. I'm now confident that with some time, lots of hard work along with 7sage, I'll definitely hit 170 for sure. Good luck to everyone! You can do it!

Alex

@cm214998 said:
On a side note, 2 weeks into the 7sage curriculum, I have already seen MASSIVE improvements. My timing is spot on and I've gotten more then 80 percent of all questions I've worked on correct. It's like literally, something just clicked overnight. 7sage is magic. I'm so pissed I didn't start it earlier and I'm especially pissed I paid almost 2000 bucks for a course that didn't even help. I'm now confident that with some time, lots of hard work along with 7sage, I'll definitely hit 170 for sure. Good luck to everyone! You can do it!

That's how I felt after 2 weeks! And the good news is it only gets better! IT does feel a little bit like magic Happy to hear you're lovin' it

Good luck!

cm214998

@"Alex Divine" Hopefully, I'm not blowing your cover or anything, but I know that you're "Barack O'Drama" from TLS. (I'm very good at picking up patterns lol). You're actually the reason why I signed up for 7Sage, so I appreciate the recommendation, your posts are very helpful! Best of luck!

Alex

@cm214998 said:
Hopefully, I'm not blowing your cover or anything, but I know that you're "Barack O'Drama" from TLS. (I'm very good at picking up patterns lol). You're actually the reason why I signed up for 7Sage, so I appreciate the recommendation, your posts are very helpful! Best of luck!

Haha, I think a lot of people know already so no worries.

And that makes me really happy to hear!

Best of luck to you as well!

Sprinkles

@cm214998 said:
@"Alex Divine" Hopefully, I'm not blowing your cover or anything, but I know that you're "Barack O'Drama" from TLS. (I'm very good at picking up patterns lol). You're actually the reason why I signed up for 7Sage, so I appreciate the recommendation, your posts are very helpful! Best of luck!

http://67.media.tumblr.com/c6e671974935227e1af9b98e7e63497f/tumblr_inline_o6mum2glsv1t507a3_500.gif