NYU or Columbia

always learning

Do you think that I have a chance for either NYU or Columbia with a 170 and 3.9 GPA but no extracurriculars. I scored 6 points lower than my average LSAT practice tests on the September exam

EmmaWI88

I'd say yes. But I'd bring in whatever life experience you have even if it's not necessarily extracurricular. Like if you worked or something along those lines.

Cant Get Right

You definitely have a chance.

nessa.k13.0

Looking at the stats for each school from their websites...

NYU: GPA 25th/75th percentile -- 3.7/3.9 LSAT --- 166/171
Columbia: GPA 25th/75th percentile-- 3.56/3.81 LSAT -- 168/174

I'd say you have a good chance provided your application doesn't have anything majorly surprising in a negative way and you follow general admissions advice, like having solid letters of recommendation etc. If by extracurriculars you mean in undergrad--I'm not sure that they care too much unlike what you do after undergrad. Your LSAT score is Columbia's average of 170 and below their median of 172. Your GPA is well above their average and mean of 3.68 and 3.70 respectively. You are scoring at or near both school's 75th percentile so that's a good sign!

http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/applicants/classprofile

http://web.law.columbia.edu/admissions/jd/experience/class-profile

always learning

Thanks @nessa.k13.0 for all of the research! I still don't get what the whole 25th/75th percentile thing is though

stepharizona

I would say visit them too the vibe is VERY different between the two. I thought I would LOVE LOVE LOVE Columbia and it was my dream school, turns out, it wasn't a fit at all and NYU, which I didn't think I fit into, is now my goal/dream school.

jowens7317

This question leads to a broader question of whether or not law schools in general actually care about extracurricular activities at all. With all the research that I've done, it seems to me that law schools look at your numbers compared to their medians first and foremost and if you're applying to a T14 law school, they only look at your extracurriculars secondarily if your numbers fall below their 75th percentile of LSAT scores and UGPA.

Cant Get Right

@jowens7317 , since 75% of people will fall beneath the 75th percentile though, it still matters for most of us. Sure, lots of applicants will be pretty immediately accepted or rejected, but the bulk of the work of admissions is to sort through everybody in the middle.

jowens7317

@Cant Get Right You are 100% correct, I wasn't completely clear with my statement. Of course every single law school has some picking and choosing to do between applicants that fall in between the 25th and 75th percentile. What I was trying to say is that T14 law schools place more emphasis on extracurricular activities than the majority of other law schools do because they know people are going to apply with high numbers. For example if you apply to a T50 law school they are mainly looking at your numbers and if both your LSAT score and UGPA are above their respective medians they won't place as much emphasis on extracurriculars because they are trying boost their own stats. But a T14 law school will take a closer look and place much more emphasis on all applicants extracurriculars unless the applicant greatly exceeds their respective 75th percentile. In other words, strong extracurriculars matter more if your numbers fall below a T14 law schools 75th percentile and strong extracurriculars matter more if your numbers fall below a T50 law schools median. Once you get past the T14 it becomes more or less a numbers game besides LoRs and your personal statement which is an important aspect of every application.

jowens7317

OP, your numbers are very very strong and you will almost certainly get an interview with both schools. Blow them away with your interview and you will have nothing to worry about!

always learning

@stepharizona Thanks for your reply - I'm interested in what difference in "vibe" you noticed during your visits

nessa.k13.0

You are welcome @"always learning".

Okay here's my breakdown of percentiles. I wouldn't blame you for scrolling away now....last chance....okay you're doing this. Percentiles (think percentage of a certain group in this case, a fall class) are sometimes split up into quarters to provide a (quartile) division of the percentages. This way, you can more efficiently compare your performance within a group, along different performance brackets/benchmarks, of the entire group. Essentially you can now determine rank because the 75th, 50th, and 25th percentiles function as a quartile measure of spread. (Think along the lines of how you want your grades to be higher in numerical value but in comparison to your classmates.) Quartiles are similar to (technically a division of) the median, which is a central span measure of the middle (the point at the 50th percentile). Quartiles are more detailed because they outline a comparison of your performance level in context of the lowest quarter to the middle and a threshold for the highest quarter. When NYU Law reports that their fall 2016 entering class had a (1stQ, 2ndQ, 3rdQ) 75th/50th/25th percentile GPA performance of 3.9/3.8/3.7 respectively, this means your gpa performance is higher than 75% of the class and possibly (in the 1st quartile) in the top 25% (ppl with a 3.8 did better than 50%---half which puts them in the middle, and 3.7 is at the lower 25% of the 2016 entering class). For NYU's LSAT the 75th/50th/25th percentile scores are 171/169/166. Estimating your quartile performance is a bit more fuzzy for this because the scores don't deviate by much (75th-171 to 50th-169...yeah not the most helpful here because it's 2 test points for a span of 25%. Idk how many people received a 170 compared to a 169 within that range). Without seeing their scoring data set all I can say is that your LSAT performance is above the 50th percentile, but it could be anywhere in between the 51st to the 74th percentile. This means you could have a performance that is anywhere from 51% to 74% higher than of the 2016 entering class. Sorry, I can't get more specific without data points, but I hope that explains percentiles and how they can be more helpful than averages. Basically LSAT/GPA wise your performance is, at worst, in the middle of the group (which is awesome because that's better than half those who were accepted) and your highest is at the top quarter performance.

always learning

@nessa.k13.0 OK - got it! lol I didn't give up

nessa.k13.0

Haha @"always learning" ride or die--respect.

shahla.s-1

@"always learning" You have really good numbers. I won't focus on the numbers at all but I would advice you to really get a good personal statement out. It could be something really small but meaningful in your life. I read a PS of how being a middle child made him fight for justice, and that guy got into Harvard. If you have the means to afford a consulting company like Spivey, or the admission package here, I would definitely get it to make sure the whole package is 100%. You don't want small mistakes or errors in your application that may hinder the process. I definitely disagree with the whole extracurricular activity part. You don't need to show all that, but you do need to show that you are unique and will bring something diverse to the classroom. And we all have it. So you need to sit down and brainstorm what is it about you that you really want them to know, it has to be sincere. Don't just try to find something that will impress them, find something about you, that YOU think is meaningful to you. Good luck!

Alex

Yes, you have a great chance at NYU and a very good chance at C. I'd guess 55%+ at C and 70%+ at NYU.

Cant Get Right

@jowens7317 said:
What I was trying to say is that T14 law schools place more emphasis on extracurricular activities than the majority of other law schools do because they know people are going to apply with high numbers.

Gotcha. You are absolutely correct.

always learning

@"Alex Divine" Thanks - finally some hard numbers.

Alex

@"always learning" said:
@"Alex Divine" Thanks - finally some hard numbers.

Yeah, I think you're going to snag NYU for sure and you have a coin flip chance at Columbia.

http://mylsn.info/ov6yon/