According to Spivey's data, there has been an overall increase in the number of applicants, specifically those scoring in the 160s to 170s, notably with a 262% increase in those who scored a 175! Does this mean that the cycle is going to be more competitive going forward, with the unlimited retake policy? How will schools treat splitters and reverse-splitters?
Heres the link: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/december-2017-data/
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59 comments
Just because there’s potential abuse of a system doesn’t mean it’s widely abused. I also listen to the Thinking LSAT and while they sometimes give good advice, that episode really irritated me. Those guys are also not disability experts and just because they thought some of their students abused the system doesn’t mean that was actually true. Much like the judgement above here on someone’s anxiety, they could have been way off base. The expert they interviewed also pushed back firmly saying that people with disabilities don’t immediately score well on the test, it’s a system designed for them to score how they would otherwise without that disability. And yes, also not every accommodation is extra time. There are extra breaks, the test being read aloud, many different scenarios. If you’re not the one with the disability or the professional doing the evaluation, it’s not your place to judge who needs accommodations. LSAC has to change their regulations for good reason; they were denying accommodations to people who truly needed them. I’m glad that they are allowing more folks to be accommodated. My only responsibility here is to score the best that I can and not worry about anyone else’s scores or test environments.
For what it’s worth, I’ve also seen way more horror stories about proctors and things getting messed up for accommodated takers than the other rooms. Since accommodations take place at different times, I’ve seen scheduling mistakes, poor communication from proctors about when/where to show up, just a mess. So I’d almost say there’s as much disadvantage as advantage in getting accommodations. By the way, people who have double time creates a nearly 8 hour test! And they still only get 1 break to eat. Doesn’t sound pleasant to me.
That said, again, accommodations doesn’t account for nearly this many people in the bump from last year to now. There’s obviously just more people taking the test. It’s a more competitive cycle than the last couple of years but Spivey’s latest blog also shows it’s still down something like 30-40% from the peak several years ago. It’s just bouncing back slightly.
@stepharizona288 There are many different ways to practice. There are also many different reasons besides practicing law to attend law school. Let's not go down this road.
@merdjunk372 said:
In this instance, claiming that anxiety is something that is easily "fake-able" produces the potential for a similar environment. Creating a social stigma associated with anxiety accommodations means that people with legitimate disabilities might not seek them out for fear of being labeled a "faker" by an admissions committee (or by their friends/future classmates).
https://viralviralvideos.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/Yes-reaction-gifs.gif
@leahbeuk911 said:
Just because there’s potential abuse of a system doesn’t mean it’s widely abused.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/69194ded047da2151161a4469c14c3f7/tenor.gif
@stepharizona288 said:
I think a good analogy here is voter fraud. With no evidence of a significant problem, all across the country, states have passed anti-voting fraud bills.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/9a5cb7ca4358525b31ebbee830dd65d2/tenor.gif
@oberdysz231
First off, lying accomodated testers make an awful explanation for a rise in 175+ applications. The reason for this is that we know there hasn't been a dramatic rise in 175+ takers. We know this because the percentiles for each score are still roughly the same. What's happening is that more 175+ takers either from previous cycles or this cycle are applying so far this cycle. We should try to explain why that is happening, and accomodated testers don't help us explain it.
Now that it is clear accomodations fraud isn't responsible for the spike in 175+ applications, we should probably address why your overall belief in widespread accomodations fraud is so problematic.
I think a good analogy here is voter fraud. With no evidence of a significant problem, all across the country, states have passed anti-voting fraud bills. They do things like require people to have specific types of photo IDs to vote. Those without these IDs then have to jump through hoops to get them. Many do, but many invariably don't. And thus, the vote is suppressed.
What you are proposing is to in some way make it harder for people to wrongfully get accomodations. You have no evidence that any large number of people are wrongfully getting accomodations. Whatever, increased hurdles we make to get people to prove their accomodations will result in fewer of them making it through these costly hurdles and getting the accomodations(which you admit they need).
Further you say that having been tested shouldn't be enough to justify accomodation nor should a history of accomodations on other standardized tests. What system would you use? It's not easy to travel back in time and request fake accomodations on past tests where you didn't need them or to forsee the future well enough to claim accomodations you don't need on standardized tests like the SAT and ACT in high school so you can have more time on the LSAT. It is also invariably going to be true that in any system which relies on doctors to evaluate conditions which determine whether accomodations are needed those doctors could theoretically be corrupted. What are you going to do? You could create a centralized system of LSAT anxiety and other disability testers who are monitored to ensure they are not bribed. But who is going to bear the cost of that? Or maybe what you are actually angling for is just to make it incrementally harder for disabled people to get accomodations because you feel threatened by the thought of competing on a more level playing field with them.
I don't feel threatened by them at all. In fact I feel more insecure about whether I will deserve the outcome I get, when whole classes and types of people are being systematically oppressed and held down beneath me.
Oh boy, I just have to accept my fate.....
https://media.giphy.com/media/CfoiRXkfHSEEg/giphy.gif
@oberdysz231 said:
I'm not dissing on people with disabilities... only the ones who fake it. And anxiety can be very fake-able...don't you think. I'm 100% behind honest disability suffering testers to get accommodations.
Ooof, ok...Let's dive into this type of comment/argument with a timely analogy, sexual assault. One of the most common attacks on people claiming to have been assaulted is that it's so easy for anyone to just say they've been assaulted since in most instances is nigh impossible to prove one way or the other. Because of that those being accused have long used the defense, they are just faking it to attack me (this can be clearly seen in the Roy Moore scandal playing out right now). This has, unfortunately, proved quite a successful strategy leading to an environment where people don't come forward for fear of not being believed and opening themselves up to attack all over again.
In this instance, claiming that anxiety is something that is easily "fake-able" produces the potential for a similar environment. Creating a social stigma associated with anxiety accommodations means that people with legitimate disabilities might not seek them out for fear of being labeled a "faker" by an admissions committee (or by their friends/future classmates). This means that they are being punished for something they cannot control because some people might possibly abuse the only recourse they have to level the playing field.
You say you are 100% behind honest disability suffering testers getting accommodations, and yet you just made fun of a girl you've never met and assumed her faking her disability (or need for accommodation) because the one she claimed is potentially "fake-able". Don't you see how that's not ok and potentially damaging to everyone that shares that disability?
I remember there was another post on TLS that had an eerily similar tone as the comment posted here, attributing cause of 170 scorers to the accomodations. Pitting the blame on the accomodations policy is counter productive and appears to be speculative. That mental capital could be better spent improving your own score and working on your apps.
@zmeeker91389 said:
@merdjunk372-1
One simple question: Would this group receive the scores they do without the extra time? I can say with high degree of certainty that no, the group probably wouldn't.
Isn't that the whole point of an accommodation?
...
@elliottscott8814 said:
Is it also possible that more people who scored 170 plus in previous years, are now deciding to apply to law school?
Alternate cause. ;)
Also it's worth noting that the increase in applicants with 160-170+ correlates with an overall increase in the number of students taking the test. Also remember that law school class sizes are not fixed. They can make more or less seats available if they like. This means it's possible that the test is as hard as it ever was, and that the upcoming cycle will not be markedly more competitive than any other.
They have been giving accommodations left and right so that would explain the increase :/
@zmeeker91389 said:
@merdjunk372-1
Where do I assume causation exactly? By pointing to an unfair advantage I'm merely pointing to an objective outcome and judging the merit of that outcome. I'm not even really speculating about causation. One simple question: Would this group receive the scores they do without the extra time? I can say with high degree of certainty that no, the group probably wouldn't. Moreover, these scores are objectively better outcomes, which constitutes an advantaged position. Therefore, extra time contributes to an advantage over the normal population. Never claimed this was the sole factor.
If you want, I could design an experiment where (a) people were tested under normal conditions and (b) people were given more time. I can guarantee I could create a predictive model that uses time as one of the primary inputs. I just thought for the sake of argument we could assume this to be the case.
Anyways, didn't mean to create a big debate over this, and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. I believe that people should seek accommodations if they believe/know they need them. But, I also think that out of respect for those individuals and everyone who takes the LSAT, we should take gaming of accommodations seriously. It does happen.
When you attribute accomodated testers recieving slightly higher than average scores to an unfair advantage you are assuming causation. You are assuming that rather than the accomodation enabling accomodated testers to perform at their true ability (which would not be an unfair advantage) it is allowing them to exceed their true ability (an unfair advantage).
It is absurd to say you are not judging the merit of an outcome that you just called unfair. If I said an election was not fair, but that I was not judging whether or not that was a good thing, that a football game wasn't being called fairly but that I wasn't claiming that was right or wrong, or any similar claim you would recognize it was absurd.
Yes, if you take away time accomodations from a group of disabled testers who have proven to LSAT that they need those accomodations, they will do worse. That doesn't mean they had an unfair advantage. If we provided appropriate accomodations to all disabled people and they tested above the average you might have a point that the accomodations were giving them an unfair advantage because they recieved higher than average scores. But that is not what happens. They have to request accomodations, prove in some way their need for accomodations, wait for a response from LSAC, and then they take the test. We reasonably would expect someone who does those things to study more too. If they studied more, then(assuming studying works to improve LSAT score, which it does) they ought to score higher on average if the accomodation controls for their disability. If the population of accomodated testers scored the same on average as non-accoomodated testers while studying more it would, other things equal, be evidence that they had been insufficiently accomodated.
You say gaming accomodations does happen. I'm confident that it has happened. But, like with voter fraud, if you don't provide some evidence of it happening on a meaningful scale, I think we have to assume that it is happening on a small enough scale that trying to stop it is not worth making it harder for the large number of people who need accomodations to get them.
Anyways you say you didn't mean to offend anyone. I do want to offend a few people, but hope you are not one of them. I want to offend anyone who doesn't need accomodations, but seeks them out or cheats in any other way because they are too intelllectual lazy, weak willed, or unconfident in themselves to compete with all of us on a level playing field. I also want to offend anyone who would advocate making it harder for those who do need accomodations to obtain them because they are similarly unconfident of their ability to compete on a freshly leveled playing field against appropriately accomodated testers.
@anonclsstudent104 said:
@merdjunk372 said:
@oberdysz231 said:
I'm not dissing on people with disabilities... only the ones who fake it. And anxiety can be very fake-able...don't you think. I'm 100% behind honest disability suffering testers to get accommodations.
Ooof, ok...Let's dive into this type of comment/argument with a timely analogy, sexual assault. One of the most common attacks on people claiming to have been assaulted is that it's so easy for anyone to just say they've been assaulted since in most instances is nigh impossible to prove one way or the other. Because of that those being accused have long used the defense, they are just faking it to attack me (this can be clearly seen in the Roy Moore scandal playing out right now). This has, unfortunately, proved quite a successful strategy leading to an environment where people don't come forward for fear of not being believed and opening themselves up to attack all over again.
In this instance, claiming that anxiety is something that is easily "fake-able" produces the potential for a similar environment. Creating a social stigma associated with anxiety accommodations means that people with legitimate disabilities might not seek them out for fear of being labeled a "faker" by an admissions committee (or by their friends/future classmates). This means that they are being punished for something they cannot control because some people might possibly abuse the only recourse they have to level the playing field.
You say you are 100% behind honest disability suffering testers getting accommodations, and yet you just made fun of a girl you've never met and assumed her faking her disability (or need for accommodation) because the one she claimed is potentially "fake-able". Don't you see how that's not ok and potentially damaging to everyone that shares that disability?
You didn't address the point -- that it's an easily fakable disability. You argued that that type of argument produces a social stigma, which may or may not be true, but isn't it possible that that argument is both valid AND produces a social stigma? I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's not as simple an issue as you seem to believe.
I would argue that it's not actually that fake able when diagnosed by a professional. Again, an anxiety disorder is not something people who don't suffer one can really understand well enough to fake (proven by the misconception that leads people to dismissing it as a real issue because they too get anxious about things in normal anxiety producing situations). The truth will out, as it were, but this doesn't matter.
As @stepharizona288 so smartly put it above, this is like voter fraud. It doesn't matter if it's fake able or not. You are trying to solve a problem with no evidence of its existence. Worse yet, trying to argue that a solution to another actual problem might need altering due to your hypothetical. Stop worrying about what others might be doing and start worrying about what you should be doing. That or ask LSAC if you can do research into whether or not people are abusing the system. If they are concerned maybe they'll even fund your study with all our application fees.
@oberdysz231 said:
@elliottscott8814 said:
@oberdysz231 said:
@stepharizona288 said:
@elliottscott8814 said:
@oberdysz231
And if given double the time, average 154 lsater can easily get 175.
This isn't true at all an accommodated test taker usually only improves 2.4 points with accommodated testing! It's in the research the LSAC did. I've helped students get accommodated testing when they need it and it's harder than it seems and it's NOT always additional time. Plus it's not going to make up the 200% difference.
Some people have huge amounts of issues with anxiety to a point where it interferes with daily life activities. Who are we to judge her serverity simply because it's "anxiety". It's like yelling at someone who's walking perfectly fine from a handicap parking space and assuming their cheating. We have no idea how their being impacted.
There are SO many unseen issues and if people request without previous accommodations it's going to be harder to be approved and even with approval it's not going to have that dramatic of an impact.
Like I said the LSAC research had it equivalent to how much a retaker improves.
And it's MUCH more difficult to get double time than 1.5. I helped a student I tutor with this and he had to move to Feb because even with prior documentation from his college he had to get his original evaluation to get double time. He truely needed the double time and OF COURSE he's going to do better with 70 min vs 35 min that's whys he's being accommodated.
@elliottscott8814 said:
@oberdysz231 said:
They have been giving accommodations left and right so that would explain the increase :/
Do you know if there is an increase in the number of accommodations? Or is it something that you feel?
The documentation needed to get accommodations is still very regulated and all it does it provide a fair playing field for those in need and not all accommodations are time related, plus it's never going to be enough to explain a 200% increase.
@elliottscott8814 said:
According to Spivey's data, there has been an overall increase in the number of applicants, specifically those scoring in the 160s to 170s, notably with a 262% increase in those who scored a 175! Does this mean that the cycle is going to be more competitive going forward, with the unlimited retake policy? How will schools treat splitters and reverse-splitters?
Heres the link: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/december-2017-data/
Well, yeah, it would only make sense it would be more competitive with those increases. I think this has more or less been a trend though, as more people are just simply retaking and studying way longer, which is a good thing in my opinion.
It probably doesn't bode well for splitters going forward. Especially with more schools taking the GRE in the future. Reverse splitters don't and never really existed. With a high GPA/low LSAT, you're just not a competitive candidate in the way someone with a high LSAT is.
Holy crapoli...
Looks like this cycle is gonna be competitive...
Not gonna lie, as someone with a high GPA but only a meh LSAT score right now, I'm kind of excited to see a higher number of higher scorers...maybe schools need someone like me to bump up their GPAs...
But I wonder to what degree the high number of applicants can be attributed to GRE applicants. Maybe there are a bunch of people who are applying to Grad School, or are in Grad School currently, and are just throwing an application at law schools for the heck of it.
Of course, accommodated test takers are a population that probably has distinctive properties as compared to the non-accommodated test taking population. It is reasonable to suppose that, on average, these folks prepare more than others. However, that doesn't do anything to the fact that there is a definite relation between the time available in taking a LSAT test and the accuracy on said test. The question seems to be whether these improvements are (a) in line with making the "playing field" even, and (b) whether the provision of accomodations under standard procedures facilitate (a).
I still do not get why this is such a big topic of debate without more though. It sounds like unwarranted speculation, and of a cynical, mean-spirited sort.--A.c.S
@stepharizona288 said:
@zmeeker91389
This is a good point that I didn't initially consider. However, because I feel it necessary to defend my initial position, I think you make a lot more assumptions by saying that this group is significantly different from the general population in terms of their academic abilities, work habits and etc. It's possible this group is just harder working and more qualitied, but nothing indicates that is the case.
They had the time and knowledge to navigate the system to get an accomodation. Doesn't that imply at the very least a little additional knowledge of the LSAT compared to the average applicant? Isn't it probable that they also know other things about the test like that it is possible to better your performance through study?
I think if there is an argument that accommodated testers score higher than the general population, this is one of the most plausible explanations. We all know that at any given administration, there are a not insignificant number of folks who did not prepare at all and took it more or less on a whim. That will drive stats down to some degree. However, someone who takes the time to prepare documentation and work with professionals in order to received an accommodation has likely invested a lot of time in this process, and has probably also been studying. That alone would make the average score higher than that of the non-accommodated testers. This makes a lot of sense to me.
@zmeeker91389
This is a good point that I didn't initially consider. However, because I feel it necessary to defend my initial position, I think you make a lot more assumptions by saying that this group is significantly different from the general population in terms of their academic abilities, work habits and etc. It's possible this group is just harder working and more qualitied, but nothing indicates that is the case.
They had the time and knowledge to navigate the system to get an accomodation. Doesn't that imply at the very least a little additional knowledge of the LSAT compared to the average applicant? Isn't it probable that they also know other things about the test like that it is possible to better your performance through study?
I know a number of folks like myself who weren't quite happy last cycle that decided to delay in order to retake once the rules were changed to allow for unlimited takes. My 176 is definitely a score that would not be in the applicant pool this cycle without that. My guess is that's a lot of it. Sorry! The other thing to keep in mind is that 175+ scores were way down last year. So a bit of that jump is just going to be self correction.
@merdjunk372 said:
@anonclsstudent104 said:
@merdjunk372 said:
@oberdysz231 said:
I'm not dissing on people with disabilities... only the ones who fake it. And anxiety can be very fake-able...don't you think. I'm 100% behind honest disability suffering testers to get accommodations.
Ooof, ok...Let's dive into this type of comment/argument with a timely analogy, sexual assault. One of the most common attacks on people claiming to have been assaulted is that it's so easy for anyone to just say they've been assaulted since in most instances is nigh impossible to prove one way or the other. Because of that those being accused have long used the defense, they are just faking it to attack me (this can be clearly seen in the Roy Moore scandal playing out right now). This has, unfortunately, proved quite a successful strategy leading to an environment where people don't come forward for fear of not being believed and opening themselves up to attack all over again.
In this instance, claiming that anxiety is something that is easily "fake-able" produces the potential for a similar environment. Creating a social stigma associated with anxiety accommodations means that people with legitimate disabilities might not seek them out for fear of being labeled a "faker" by an admissions committee (or by their friends/future classmates). This means that they are being punished for something they cannot control because some people might possibly abuse the only recourse they have to level the playing field.
You say you are 100% behind honest disability suffering testers getting accommodations, and yet you just made fun of a girl you've never met and assumed her faking her disability (or need for accommodation) because the one she claimed is potentially "fake-able". Don't you see how that's not ok and potentially damaging to everyone that shares that disability?
You didn't address the point -- that it's an easily fakable disability. You argued that that type of argument produces a social stigma, which may or may not be true, but isn't it possible that that argument is both valid AND produces a social stigma? I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's not as simple an issue as you seem to believe.
I would argue that it's not actually that fake able when diagnosed by a professional. Again, an anxiety disorder is not something people who don't suffer one can really understand well enough to fake (proven by the misconception that leads people to dismissing it as a real issue because they too get anxious about things in normal anxiety producing situations). The truth will out, as it were, but this doesn't matter.
As a medical professional, shit disturber, and devil's advocate, I'm not going to take a stance on the issue here, but I do understand both sides. One comment I will make though is that being diagnosed by a professional is not much of a hurdle to cross, especially when a high LSAT can be life changing. Over-diagnosis may be a real thing, just look at the autism case. There may be plenty of folks who are on prescribed stimulants or anti-anxiety meds when just a 10 min meditation would be just as beneficial. Not trying to bring up a big pharma debate, but knowing motives can be beneficial to understanding trends.
Also just because there are real folks with disabilities does not exclude the possibility of fakers. The questions that may be of benefit is how many fakers are there? Perhaps it's so small that it's irrelevant. It's not like these people take the test and then announce to the world that they didn't really have a disability. Trying to go after these people, in my opinion, is a futile endeavor. Your time will be better spent improving your own score.
THE BIGGER PICTURE:
Lets look to other countries that have similar trends in standardized tests. When so many people are brilliant, as in this case, eventually there is just less opportunity, even if you "Deserve" it. What do you do in that case? You go somewhere that has opportunity and openings. This is a problem with a rise in population plain and simple. Schools just have to increase class sizes or new schools will have to be created. Demand increases with relatively slow increase in supply probably means higher tuition costs.
I don't know the solution to this but I would bet that this trend is here to stay and will only get worse.
@merdjunk372 said:
@oberdysz231 said:
I'm not dissing on people with disabilities... only the ones who fake it. And anxiety can be very fake-able...don't you think. I'm 100% behind honest disability suffering testers to get accommodations.
Ooof, ok...Let's dive into this type of comment/argument with a timely analogy, sexual assault. One of the most common attacks on people claiming to have been assaulted is that it's so easy for anyone to just say they've been assaulted since in most instances is nigh impossible to prove one way or the other. Because of that those being accused have long used the defense, they are just faking it to attack me (this can be clearly seen in the Roy Moore scandal playing out right now). This has, unfortunately, proved quite a successful strategy leading to an environment where people don't come forward for fear of not being believed and opening themselves up to attack all over again.
In this instance, claiming that anxiety is something that is easily "fake-able" produces the potential for a similar environment. Creating a social stigma associated with anxiety accommodations means that people with legitimate disabilities might not seek them out for fear of being labeled a "faker" by an admissions committee (or by their friends/future classmates). This means that they are being punished for something they cannot control because some people might possibly abuse the only recourse they have to level the playing field.
You say you are 100% behind honest disability suffering testers getting accommodations, and yet you just made fun of a girl you've never met and assumed her faking her disability (or need for accommodation) because the one she claimed is potentially "fake-able". Don't you see how that's not ok and potentially damaging to everyone that shares that disability?
You didn't address the point -- that it's an easily fakable disability. You argued that that type of argument produces a social stigma, which may or may not be true, but isn't it possible that that argument is both valid AND produces a social stigma? I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's not as simple an issue as you seem to believe.
@oberdysz231 said:
LSAC lost a lawsuit regarding accommodations and since then they have been very easy on people who request them. You can research it, it's not hard to get a1.5 or double the time if you have been accommodated on previous tests or have the money to get "tested". "Thinking lsat" guys often mention this. I just listened to an episode where a girl received time and a half due to ... anxiety.
As someone who has a diagnosed anxiety disorder (who doesn't get accommodations because I've spent years in therapy and don't think it's intense enough anymore to justify), don't judge if you don't know what you're talking about. I get it sounds ridiculous, "oh you have anxiety about the test!? Join the club," but actual anxiety disorders are incredibly debilitating. This is like complaining that a paraplegic gets to cut the line at Disney World because you have a sprained ankle. Just because the same word is used to describe both (anxiety) does not mean they share the same level of intensity.
@elliottscott8814 said:
@anonclsstudent104 said:
@oberdysz231
"A consent decree is an agreement or settlement that resolves a dispute between two parties without admission of guilt (in a criminal case) or liability (in a civil case), and most often refers to such a type of settlement in the United States."
LSAC entered into a consent decree. They did not lose the lawsuit.
Yea, Department of Fair Employment and Housing v. Law School Admission Council, Inc. was resolved in 2014.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/law-school-admission-council-agrees-systemic-reforms-and-773-million-payment-settle-justice
1.LSAC did not win and agreed to pay 7.3 millions in penalties- looks more like a loss to me.
2. I'm not saying people with disabilities should not get extra time, what I'm saying is that a lot of people who already score high, or don't put a lot of effort into preparation, and have the money to pay to get tested get them( once again referring to the thinking lsat podcast, where Nathan and Ben talk about how many of their students get accommodations, but don't really need them.)... I see how underprivileged people with legitimate disabilities can get screwed here. Those tests are expensive!
3. https://abovethelaw.com/2014/05/the-lsat-cant-discriminate-against-the-disabled-so-time-for-everybody-to-get-add/.