Stuck in the purgatory of -8 on LR

Redentore3337

I've been studying for about four months now, at first I started out getting -8 on LR. I did the core curriculem, and I'm still getting -8 on LR. I go back and BR, I write down the types of questions I got wrong. I go back to core curriculem or the LSAT trainer and focus on those questions. The one silver lining is, I'll get -5 every now and then on my second LR section, and it's always my second LR section that I do better on, but yea. I know this takes a while but it's just very frustrating. Not sure what to do guys. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

Return On Inference

Do you get the questions wrong on BR?

I ask because if you're getting questions wrong without the time constraint, then it suggests that there's some issue with the fundamentals that you're having. If that's the case, then be sure to review the CC and practice sets for those questions you seem to miss.

If you're getting them correct in BR, then it shows that timing is the main issue. In this case, I would look into the various timing strategies for LR.

Redentore3337

@"Return On Inference" said:
Do you get the questions wrong on BR?

I ask because if you're getting questions wrong without the time constraint, then it suggests that there's some issue with the fundamentals that you're having. If that's the case, then be sure to review the CC and practice sets for those questions you seem to miss.

If you're getting them correct in BR, then it shows that timing is the main issue. In this case, I would look into the various timing strategies for LR.

Yea I'm getting the questions wrong in BR. I have done them both timed and untimed and there is surprisingly no difference with how many wrong I get.

goingfor99th

You have to identify premises and conclusions for every LR stimulus you do. It's critical to know which sentence functions as a premise v. which functions as an intermediate conclusion/a conclusion. Do you label these in the stimuli if you are not able to keep track of them by memory?

Example of a perfect argument:
Premise1: A -> B
Premise2: B -> C
Conclusion: A -> C

[A -> [B] -> C]

Redentore3337

@goingfor99th said:
You have to identify premises and conclusions for every LR stimulus you do. It's critical to know which sentence functions as a premise v. which functions as an intermediate conclusion/a conclusion. Do you label these in the stimuli if you are not able to keep track of them by memory?

I do not label them, I try to do it mentally, but obviously thats not working. Do you label the premise/conclusion for every question or only for certain question types?

goingfor99th

@Redentore3337 said:

@goingfor99th said:
You have to identify premises and conclusions for every LR stimulus you do. It's critical to know which sentence functions as a premise v. which functions as an intermediate conclusion/a conclusion. Do you label these in the stimuli if you are not able to keep track of them by memory?

I do not label them, I try to do it mentally, but obviously thats not working. Do you label the premise/conclusion for every question or only for certain question types?

At this point in your preparation, you will want to label them every single time.

Make note of which question types do not typically contain conclusions in the stimuli.

Redentore3337

@goingfor99th said:

@Redentore3337 said:

@goingfor99th said:
You have to identify premises and conclusions for every LR stimulus you do. It's critical to know which sentence functions as a premise v. which functions as an intermediate conclusion/a conclusion. Do you label these in the stimuli if you are not able to keep track of them by memory?

I do not label them, I try to do it mentally, but obviously thats not working. Do you label the premise/conclusion for every question or only for certain question types?

At this point in your preparation, you will want to label them every single time.

Make note of which question types do not typically contain conclusions in the stimuli.

Ok will do. Thanks man!

keets993

Is it specific question types? What about difficulty level? In addition to what has already been stated, I'd suggest trying to anticipate the answer choices. So when you're done labelling the premise and conclusion, cover up the answer choices and write down what you think the answer choice might look like. This way you're engaging with the material and it helps you figure out whether you really understand the stimulus/argument structure. Also, when you do your BR do you write it down/type it out or do you just think about it?

Redentore3337

@keets993 said:
Is it specific question types? What about difficulty level? In addition to what has already been stated, I'd suggest trying to anticipate the answer choices. So when you're done labelling the premise and conclusion, cover up the answer choices and write down what you think the answer choice might look like. This way you're engaging with the material and it helps you figure out whether you really understand the stimulus/argument structure. Also, when you do your BR do you write it down/type it out or do you just think about it?

The questions I'm getting wrong have changed. I would initially get a lot of weaken/strengthen questions wrong, then I'd get a little better at that and fall elsewhere in necessary assumption, then I'd do a little better at that and get MSS questions wrong. It seems when I go back and focus on one question type, another hole gets exposed. Yea, I'm going to be a lot more deliberate about conclusion and premises.

When I do BR, I just think about it. 9 times out of 10 if I i'm stumped I get it wrong on BR again.

Yea I'm going to try and anticipate it the answer as well. Thanks guys.

keets993

@Redentore3337

I think you should defintely start to type out or write down during your blind review. Re-write the stimulus, label as you please and write down your anticipations and then write down why you think the four incorrect answer choices are incorrect and why the right answer choice is right. Try to put down more than one sentence - believe me it's so easy to write "no that's not it" when you're feeling tired but this cumbersome process is really worth it. This way, when you get a question wrong you can really see where your reasoning was wrong, especially when you're down to two answer choices and pick the wrong one. You'll have it in your face why it was wrong. I used to think about it too without writing it down and then go "oh yeah, i knew that, that's why I almost chose it" but that's not helpful in the long run especially since the structure in LR is really repetitve. You might start to see that you struggle with certain patterns like phenomenon/hypothesis or correlation, certain types of flawed reasoning, etc.

I would initially get a lot of weaken/strengthen questions wrong, then I'd get a little better at that and fall elsewhere in necessary assumption, then I'd do a little better at that and get MSS questions wrong.

So if it only those question types then I would think maybe you have issues with understanding support since these are all related q-types. I think once you start to br more thoroughly (there are webinars on this) it'll be easier to figure out what your issues with LR are.

Redentore3337

@keets993 said:
@Redentore3337

I think you should defintely start to type out or write down during your blind review. Re-write the stimulus, label as you please and write down your anticipations and then write down why you think the four incorrect answer choices are incorrect and why the right answer choice is right. Try to put down more than one sentence - believe me it's so easy to write "no that's not it" when you're feeling tired but this cumbersome process is really worth it. This way, when you get a question wrong you can really see where your reasoning was wrong, especially when you're down to two answer choices and pick the wrong one. You'll have it in your face why it was wrong. I used to think about it too without writing it down and then go "oh yeah, i knew that, that's why I almost chose it" but that's not helpful in the long run especially since the structure in LR is really repetitve. You might start to see that you struggle with certain patterns like phenomenon/hypothesis or correlation, certain types of flawed reasoning, etc.

I would initially get a lot of weaken/strengthen questions wrong, then I'd get a little better at that and fall elsewhere in necessary assumption, then I'd do a little better at that and get MSS questions wrong.

So if it only those question types then I would think maybe you have issues with understanding support since these are all related q-types. I think once you start to br more thoroughly (there are webinars on this) it'll be easier to figure out what your issues with LR are.

True, yea I have to try something different. Something's gotta give. I'm going to try all these now and see what works. My problem is when I try a new advise and it doesn't immediately work I get discouraged

ATLsat_2019

I'm not sure if you're doing this but I'd also suggest trying to map out the logic on paper whenever possible like JY does in the explanation videos. I struggle with LR too and I think this has been helping me a lot. I find it especially helpful on questions with conditionality, because it's to overlook reversed conditions without realizing if you're just doing things mentally. I don't know if that's one of the specific things you struggle with but it's helped me.

olepueblo

Make sure you have a key to label parts of the argument. I always underline my conclusion, bracket premises, and leave the context alone. See where you are before you look at the answer choices on br. Do you have any anticipation of what the right answer will look like before looking at the answers? If not, I would keep working on building that anticipation before grading the test.

Cant Get Right

You're not actually BRing, so that's definitely going to be why you're not improving between the timed take and BR and why you're not making any gains more broadly. You've got to write it all out to hold yourself accountable to your reasoning and to the process. Writing also provides a record which you can then use in hindsight to know exactly what you were thinking and exactly where your thinking was correct or incorrect.

I used a form. So for every question I BR I conform it to a very specific set of tasks.

PT.Section.Question Number

Question Type

Argument Breakdown/Analysis:
ID context/premise/conclusion, map if conditional, note any important features such as comparative statements, identify flaws and gaps, etc

Concise Summary:
Restate the argument in your own words in a compressed form that includes the essential elements.

Answer Choice Analysis:
A. Right or Wrong? Why?
B. Right or Wrong? Why?
C. Right or Wrong? Why?
D. Right or Wrong? Why?
E. Right or Wrong? Why?

Redentore3337

@"Cant Get Right" said:
You're not actually BRing, so that's definitely going to be why you're not improving between the timed take and BR and why you're not making any gains more broadly. You've got to write it all out to hold yourself accountable to your reasoning and to the process. Writing also provides a record which you can then use in hindsight to know exactly what you were thinking and exactly where your thinking was correct or incorrect.

I used a form. So for every question I BR I conform it to a very specific set of tasks.

PT.Section.Question Number

Question Type

Argument Breakdown/Analysis:
ID context/premise/conclusion, map if conditional, note any important features such as comparative statements, identify flaws and gaps, etc

Concise Summary:
Restate the argument in your own words in a compressed form that includes the essential elements.

Answer Choice Analysis:
A. Right or Wrong? Why?
B. Right or Wrong? Why?
C. Right or Wrong? Why?
D. Right or Wrong? Why?
E. Right or Wrong? Why?

Damn, you're right. That's a very useful format, I'm going to try doing that from now on. I've definietly cheated on BR/ done in it a rather superficial way. Thanks guys!

Lizzyd_17

@"Cant Get Right" Hey there, your BR format sounds so helpful. I was wondering do you use this primarily for all answers you got wrong or all the questions in your LR section.
Thanks

Kateryna

Is it -8 per section?

Kateryna

@"Cant Get Right" do you do this for every question from PT? also at which point do you stop doing this (when you reach perfect LR, when u get less than 2 wrong etc?)?

Cant Get Right

@Lizzyd_17 said:
@"Cant Get Right" Hey there, your BR format sounds so helpful. I was wondering do you use this primarily for all answers you got wrong or all the questions in your LR section.
Thanks

@Kateryna said:
@"Cant Get Right" do you do this for every question from PT? also at which point do you stop doing this (when you reach perfect LR, when u get less than 2 wrong etc?)?

If you even know which answers you got wrong, you are not blind reviewing. The answers/your performance are exactly what you're supposed to be "blind" to!

In BR, you only rework the ones you circle, and you only circle the one's you aren't confident you got correct. As you progress, the benchmark for "confident" shifts.

Initially, I think it's good to maintain a strict 100% confidence requirement. If you're "only" 99% confident you've got the right answer, circle it for BR. When you first start taking PT's, your BR score is the one you're really working at, your studies between PT's should be focused on improving it, and it will be the true evaluation of how a PT really went--not your timed score. All of your efforts should be aimed at improving your ability to maximize your BR score.

Once your BR score is comfortably and consistently above your target score, your priorities need to begin shifting, and the selection of questions for BR changes to reflect these new priorities. Closing the gap between your timed score and your BR score is largely a matter of time management. Time becomes every bit as important as confidence, and to maximize returns on your time, you need to become comfortable with a certain level of uncertainty. Adjust what you circle for BR to exclude questions on which you have strong but imperfect confidence on. At first, maybe lower the 100% threshold to 90% and adjust from there. 90% confidence is a whole lot faster to get to than 100%. Take that time and use it on other questions where you can get better than 10% return on it.

This probably goes a little more in depth, but hope it answers y'all's questions!

Redentore3337

@"Cant Get Right" said:

@Lizzyd_17 said:
@"Cant Get Right" Hey there, your BR format sounds so helpful. I was wondering do you use this primarily for all answers you got wrong or all the questions in your LR section.
Thanks

@Kateryna said:
@"Cant Get Right" do you do this for every question from PT? also at which point do you stop doing this (when you reach perfect LR, when u get less than 2 wrong etc?)?

If you even know which answers you got wrong, you are not blind reviewing. The answers/your performance are exactly what you're supposed to be "blind" to!

In BR, you only rework the ones you circle, and you only circle the one's you aren't confident you got correct. As you progress, the benchmark for "confident" shifts.

Initially, I think it's good to maintain a strict 100% confidence requirement. If you're "only" 99% confident you've got the right answer, circle it for BR. When you first start taking PT's, your BR score is the one you're really working at, your studies between PT's should be focused on improving it, and it will be the true evaluation of how a PT really went--not your timed score. All of your efforts should be aimed at improving your ability to maximize your BR score.

Once your BR score is comfortably and consistently above your target score, your priorities need to begin shifting, and the selection of questions for BR changes to reflect these new priorities. Closing the gap between your timed score and your BR score is largely a matter of time management. Time becomes every bit as important as confidence, and to maximize returns on your time, you need to become comfortable with a certain level of uncertainty. Adjust what you circle for BR to exclude questions on which you have strong but imperfect confidence on. At first, maybe lower the 100% threshold to 90% and adjust from there. 90% confidence is a whole lot faster to get to than 100%. Take that time and use it on other questions where you can get better than 10% return on it.

This probably goes a little more in depth, but hope it answers y'all's questions!

That does help alot. I actually tried doing BR right the other day, and I literally went from -7 to -4 with correct BR. So I'm definietly sticking to this process. Thanks!

Redentore3337

@Kateryna said:
Is it -8 per section?

No, other sections are all over the place but I'm working individually on them now

Cant Get Right

Oh, and @Kateryna , I never stopped doing this!