Potentially correcting misinformation from UVA webinar about employer letters

youbbyun

@"David.Busis"
I think it was briefly mentioned in the UVA webinar (please correct me if I’m wrong too) that if you’ve been out of school for 1-3 years, it’s strongly recommended (in a sense, it seemed that it was implied that it was almost mandatory) that you get at least one letter from an employer.

This, however, seems to contradict some information from law schools websites/blogs. For example, Yale Law School’s Asha’s blog says “there are a few basic rules you can follow to increase your chances significantly. One of those rules is to submit two references from faculty members who have taught you in a class. Let me put that another way: Your chances of admission to Yale Law School go down drastically if you submit only one or no academic letters of recommendation...NOTE: If you DID submit two academic letters, you do NOT need to submit additional ones at this point. I'm sure some economist could graph this out for me, but there is an optimal number of LORs for Yale and it's somewhere around 2.4...Generally speaking, LORs from faculty will carry greater weight than LORs from employers. This is because the people reviewing your application tend to be more interested in what you were like as a student and what your potential to succeed academically at Yale would be, rather than in whether you are a good "team player" or can "work quickly and efficiently."
https://law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admissions/ask-asha/bad-idea-jeans-biggest-mistake-you-can-make-your-yale-law-school-application

It’s also important to note that the average age at YLS is 25, with about 85% of admitted students at least 1 year out of college.

I agree letters from employers can be helpful, but it seems that for those out of college for 2-3 years, submitting 2 academic letters from professors is fine, and there’s no “penalty” if you don’t submit an employee letter. After all, you could be spending those 2-3 years working in a retail job or even as lawnmower as you study for the LSAT, from which it’ll be difficult for your employer to speak about your potential success in law school in terms your ability to think critically, understand complex arguments, write persuasively, etc.

Thus, for applicants a few years out of college, having 2 letters from professors seems fine, and not having an employer letter doesn’t seem like it’ll hurt you. After all, for that person who spent the last 3 years working as a restaurant waiter or that individual who started their own small chocolate business may not have an employee LOR, but I don’t think that’ll hurt them as long as they have at least 2 letters from their previous professors.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Pride Only Hurts

Yeah I don’t think she meant to imply that there was a penalty or that it was mandatory to have at least one employer LOR. I think she was referring to instances where applicants have difficulty getting an academic LOR because they’ve been out of school for a while. Even in those cases I think she still mentioned it’s best to have one academic and possibly 2 from your employer. Ultimately, law schools do seem to prefer academic LORs and for good reason. They want to know what kind of student you are. So I wouldn’t worry too much if your able to get the academic letters.

Lana Kane

I agree with @"Pride Only Hurts". For me personally, I've been out of school 7 years now, and it'll be 8 years when I apply next cycle. There's zero chance of me getting any academic letters. I was a transfer student to my university, did gen ed at a community college 10 years before I graduated, and only had my professors for one upper level class and that's it. So for better or worse, all my letters are going to be from employers. I think the key with professional LORs is that you let the person writing them know it needs to speak towards how you would be in an academic setting. So instead of "@Lana Kane is a team player" it would say "@Lana Kane has shown great attention to detail, which I think would serve her well in an academic setting because...."

mollybloom90

***I want to preface my statement below with I am not referring to students who have been out of undergrad for 1-3 years.

@"Lana Kane" I agree with you! I think there are many qualities that being a high quality professional at your job would directly relate to law school and your ability to handle large amounts of work and pressure. I have now been out of undergrad for 6 years and will be out for 7 by the time I hopefully will be going to law school. I completed two graduate degrees, but they were mainly online which did not allow me to make as many personal connections with professors as much as I would have liked to. I have one academic reference but the rest I will get from employers. I read on many websites that whoever you do get to write your recs should be able to speak to your abilities to successfully complete a law degree whether it is an academic professor or an employer, but that it is way more important that you choose individuals who are able to reference your strengths as a worker/student/individual which for you would be an employer. For those of us out of undergrad for so long, I think it would be silly to ask an undergrad professor to write a rec unless you have stayed in touch with yours and they know how you have grown as a worker over the past 6-7 years. When I emailed my employers asking to write my recs, I told them to please gear the rec towards how I would function in law school based on what they have seen me do at my jobs. Something I took away from the questions and answers last night was unless there is something really horrific in your rec (you are immoral, would make a horrible lawyer, ect.) you won't get dinged on your recs. I also took away from the conversation that recs are more supporting documents for your personal statement, resume, and scores than anything else. I think at one point it was stated that recs won't make or break your acceptance unless there is something horrific.@"David.Busis", please let me know if I am completely off with everything I have said. These have been my take-aways from the conversation last night and reading over websites mainly for the T14 law schools.

youbbyun

@"Pride Only Hurts"

I think when she answered that question, the person who asked the question was only like 2 years out of college.

It seemed that she implied that it was almost mandatory to have an employer LOR if you’ve worked for like 2 years. The person who asked the question had said he had a really tough time getting an employer letter because his employer would not take it well if he told them he was planning to leave, and the webinar speaker even suggested going to his previous employer (who he didn’t leave on good terms with) to try to get a LOR, or to try to secretly get a letter from a manager who will promise not to tell anyone that he’s planning to leave.

Why go through all that trouble to get an employee letter when you’re only 2 years out college and an employee letter is not mandatory? It seemed that in that case, it would’ve been fine to just get 2 academic letters and 0 employer letters.

And there’s also the assumption that if you’ve been working for a few years, that it’s possible to get an employer LOR. What if you work at a start up in China for the past 3 years, and your employer doesn’t speak English? How do you get an employer LOR in that case?

mollybloom90

Ok, also just read the Yale blog post. If you want to go to Yale, make sure you have at least 2 recs from professors. For everyone else, I would go with my statement above. Thanks @"David.Busis" for that link!

David Busis

@username_hello some readers have different preferences than other readers, but I've never yet encountered a reader who's operating by a secret dogmatic set of rules that she applies with merciless inflexibility to every file that comes across her desk.

Brigitte liked to see a professional LOR for people who have a couple years of work experience.

Asha, and many other current and former admissions officers with whom we've spoken, valued academic letters more.

Remember that admissions readers don't have an actual rubric. They're just reading the file and forming a total impression. When they break out the process into its components, they're trying to recreate an organic process, and they may articulate heuristics that don't apply in every single case. In real life, they're operating by their impressions, not a rulebook.

Try to get two academic LORs. But if you have a couple years of work experience and you submit at least one academic and at least one professional LOR, you're probably going to be fine.

@mollybloom90 @"Lana Kane" @"Pride Only Hurts"

youbbyun

@"David.Busis"

Thank you for your response. That makes a lot of sense. I think it was confusing at first because from the conversation I got the impression that it was almost mandatory to submit an employer LOR if you even have just 2 years of work experience, which is something I’ve never heard of. But it makes sense that some readers have different preferences than others, and that there’s no universal agreement/rule on this area, as opposed to the other areas where there is universal agreement, such as the LSAT being a significant factor in admissions.