Too much debt?

mes08

Hi everyone,

At the end of this long journey of applying to law school, I've had the misfortune of second-guessing myself. I got accepted with no scholarship at NYU, but in the past few days the thought of incurring so much debt has felt daunting. I'm not horribly debt averse, but sticker price just seems overwhelming. My goal is to pursue a career in public interest law, so NYU has been my dream school for the past two years. I thought I could do BigLaw for 2-3 years, pay down as much as I could in that time, and then transition into public interest. With NYU's generous LRAP program, I thought I'd be able to handle the remaining debt. But as @"Jonathan Wang" stated in a previous post, 10 years is an extremely long time and my interests and goals could change drastically in the meantime.

With strong softs and an acceptable GPA, I'm confident that the only reason I haven't been offered financial aid at NYU and have been waitlisted at my other top choices is because of my LSAT score.

I had originally planned on applying to law school in 2014, but postponed in order to re-take the LSAT. Now I'm wondering, should I continue working another year and re-take and re-apply in the fall? I think I'd need to increase my score about 4 points in order to get generous financial aid from Chicago/Columbia or get accepted into HYS.

When I took the LSAT last time in October, I felt like I hadn't reached my full potential on the LSAT. However, I'm afraid that taking the LSAT a fourth time is very risky; what if my score decreases, stays the same, or only increases one or two points? Should I just count my blessings and go to NYU this fall?

What do you guys think? You guys have always been supportive and helpful in the past; any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated

danilphillips

I'm not a lawyer, but I"ve been to grad school for another subject and already incurred a hefty debt. I'm also 35, so you can say I've been around the block a bit in terms of paying debts, etc.

Here's my opinion:

The 'I'll just work a few years in big law, then do what I really want' method rarely works out for people in the real world. Why? Because once you get used to a 6 figure salary and all the perks that come with it, it is extremely difficult to scale down into a job making $50 or $60k a year. You get used to having nice things and it becomes impossible to chuck all that out. In addition, life goes on while you are paying off the debt. You may very well find yourself married with a family (which costs money) during this time in big law and then it becomes even harder to walk away from the money. I know many people (including lawyers) who thought this might be a good method, and once they got a taste of the 6 figure lifestyle, could not see making any less. Some of them continue to practice big law and are miserable but want (and feel that they need) the money.

My advice is, LSAT aside, do you really have to go to NYU or another top tier school that comes with a top tier price tag? State schools offer a way better value, and if you really want to practice public interest law, I don't think you need to go to a T15 school to do this. I also want to be in government, hopefully as a public defender, and my top school is UNM, which has an in-state tuition of $16k. Paying low tuition is the only way I'll be able to practice the kind of law I want. Otherwise, it would be a huge risk for me and I'd not only resent the loans I had, I'd be financially unable to work in the field I want. Reassess why you really need to go to a top tier school. If it comes with the sacrifice of having to work in big law, and that's not what you want, do not do it. You will be miserable.

Cant Get Right

I’m really only repeating what I’ve heard from others in various threads on this forum, so I don’t have any first hand knowledge here; but from what I understand, the T6- and for whatever reason, especially NYU- don’t really even like for you to have a third take. Even if you could get LSAC to allow you a fourth take, I get the impression that it would be frowned upon, even if you increased your score.

I need my third take as well though, so it’s really encouraging to me that you got accepted at NYU on a third take. Whatever you decide to do that’s a huge accomplishment and I hope you’ve allowed yourself some time to bask in the glory before being overwhelmed by the prospect of that much debt.

Good luck in making this decision. Tough call.

UsernameChange

The answer to your question (in my opinion and in the opinion of a lot of people who frequent tls) is that no school is worth sticker with the exception of maybe Yale. Unless of course your parents are billionaires or you win the lottery or whatever. The fact that you admit you don't think you maxed out your lsat and that you are feeling like going to NYU for sticker may be a bad idea means retaking or waiting or picking a cheaper option may be a very good choice. Fwiw if you got into NYU you should be able to get a lower t14 for very cheap and still meet your career goal.
Is your choice NYU at sticker or sit out? Did you apply to lower t14s? Georgetown,Berkely,Duke,Cornell etc.?

Nicole Hopkins

@UsernameChange said:
Fwiw if you got into NYU you should be able to get a lower t14 for very cheap and still meet your career goal.

Reapply NU ED (full tuition scholarship).

Jonathan Wang

@mes08 check your email

GSU Hopeful

While I am not in the same situation as you regarding schools, I can give you the opinion of someone who is extremely debt averse. Don't pay sticker price... for any school. And, don't go into a huge amount of debt for a job that that has sinking job prospects. Before going into that, these are the latest numbers on student loan debt that I could dig up.

-Nationwide, there is approximately 1.3 trillion dollars fo student loan debt spread across 43 million borrowers
-Currently, 397 billion is being repaid representing 33% of the borrowers
-99.2 Billion worth of loans are in deferment representing 8% of borrowers
-89.5 billion are in forbearance... 6% of borrowers
-And, 50.8 billion dollars are worth of loans are in default... 8% of borrowers

The striking number to me (aside from 1.3 trillion total) is that only 33% of all borrowers are repaying their loans. If the economy is so great and everything is booming as the government would have us to believe, why are there so many problems in this area? Why can't we, as ex-students, pay for the very thing is supposed to get us ahead in this world?

I am in no way attempting to rain on anyone's parade or talk someone out of anything. This is probably just the "natterings of an old aunt", but I feel as though our country is headed toward another economic correction that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park. The reason I mention this is to show how much Big Law is dependent on the overall health of the economy. Imagine being the newest associate fresh out of law school with a 250,000 federal student loan (which is non-dischargable should you ever need to file bankruptcy) and the $2500 monthly payment that will follow you for 10 years. Since most of Big Law makes its money from big companies, what will happen to billables should the market experience a correction of 50%-60% (which I think is coming at some point in the near future). Similar to any business, income goes down, expenses have to go down as well. Unless you're someone like Mike Ross (for the fans of Suits out there), you will be first out of the door since you're the newest. Now, you're out of a job with a $2500 monthly payment that will continue to drain you until (if) you land something else.

IMHO, there is no bigger disease that is crippling this country and its citizens than debt. There is nothing I'd rather be in this world than a lawyer. BUT, I refuse to saddle myself and my family with an extreme amount of debt that will continue to haunt me well past the 10 year repayment period. If I can't pay for it, I'm not doing it.... no matter how much I want it. My plan is to continue working and go part time.... no COL loans and hopefully a healthy tuition scholarship. If that doesn't happen, it wasn't my time. I won't commit financial suicide for something that may or may not be there when I finish up.

Just my .02

GordonBombay

How much money you are willing to borrow is extremely subjective. Some people might feel nervous about borrowing $250,000. Others start getting anxious about borrowing $50,000.

Me personally, I told myself I would not borrow more than $100,000 for my entire education (under grad + law school). This is all my opinion, not some rule I'm advocating that everyone should follow, but I would NEVER take more than that for ANY school based on my career goals (not very interested in big law).

Nicole Hopkins

@GordonBombay said:
This is all my opinion, not some rule I'm advocating that everyone should follow, but I would NEVER take more than that for ANY school based on my career goals (not very interested in big law).

I think this is a good analysis, given that you're not interested in biglaw.

For those who are NOT interested in BigLaw (or—not trust funders, I guess?), you really, really, really have to be careful about how much money you dump into this upfront.

Anyone who's doing PI should focus on going to a school with phenomenal LRAP (Harvard) or get a near-full scholarship. Otherwise, it strikes me as very poor risk management to assume that you'll be able to make it for 10 years as a public defender or whatever to get the federal debt forgiveness. Those folks are worked to the bone. The whole system is structured to not support folks who want to do those kinds of things with very few exceptions. Sad? Yes. Tragic, really.

If you want to change the system, make a ton of money and either become a legislator or start a non-profit! OR get really good at courting donors

mes08

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply and for sharing your thoughts. It's definitely given me plenty to consider

7sagelsatstudent180

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jdawg113

@UsernameChange said:
no school is worth sticker with the exception of maybe Yale

this... do not go to any school for sticker unless you are wealthy and it doesnt matter. If NYU or bust, you are prob better with bust than sticker (could retake, not sure about the whole 4takes outlook and stuff so you could/should look into that) But as stated elsewhere you should def get solid money at other T14 (which you should have blanketed) Dont think you NEED NYU/CLS in order to work in NYC. Many T14 can get you there and many of those schools you can get good money even without a retake/score increase (though if you havent applied this might mean waiting another year, even without a retake)
Know that even at a solid school, a great outcome with $$$ is never guaranteed. And even with a 160k starting salary, working in NYC is going to knock that down quick after taxes hit it so dont think that you'd be starting with a 160k and living the life.
This is all besides the point bc you want to do PI which means much less money and plan on relying on an LRAP program. So I would go look at T14 schools and their LRAP programs, their NY placement (if set on NYC) and their PI placement.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/nyu/2014/ is a great site to use to compare some stats