I had a general question I was hoping some people here might have some views or insights on.
I'm Canadian and have done a ton of research on different law schools. University of Toronto is our #1 law school here, and I'd be totally happy to get in (average LSAT is 167, which I think is totally doable for me based on my current prep tests and my soft credentials). Although we have some other great law schools here in Canada, I don't really have a desire to move anywhere else in Canada, and UofT is the best, so I'm aiming high.
My absolute dream school, though, is Yale. It's mostly because of my more academic bent and I love their small class sizes and 6:1 student teacher ratio. They also really support people to take non-traditional paths with their law degree and I also feel I'd meet some exceptional people. I also realize getting into Yale is a bit of a lottery, so I'm speaking in hypotheticals if I can score a 170 or higher I'll at least apply (I have a book published with New York University Press and a few other creds that I think might make me at least worth looking at if my LSAT is high enough).
I'm considered also applying to Harvard. I'll be honest that Harvard doesn't entice me as much as Yale. Harvard seems much more geared towards streaming people into corporate law (nothing wrong with that if that is what you want to do, but not sure if it is for me). That said, it is still a great school and brand obviously, but it seems to me that Yale has a much better repayment program that adjusts to whatever work you decide to do after...
Anyways, that all said, I guess my larger question is whether it is worth going to either Yale or Harvard if one got in as a Canadian. That is, do people think the cost is worth the trade off of the prestige? For Yale I feel it could be because the program feels so up my alley of interest and is really unique, but even then I wonder if the price tag is worth it. A law degree at UofToronto is $32,000 a year, compared to 60K at Yale or Harvard.
I imagine that a degree from Yale or Harvard would be pretty transferable back to Canada if I decide to return after my degree? But I don't really know. I don't really have a strong desire to stay in the U.S after I graduate.
I realize I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it would be useful to get some feedback on this because it will help determine how many schools I apply to (each application is a lot of work and I want to put my best into them).
Thanks!
79 comments
WHAT'S CRACKING MY FELLOW CANUCKS.
So I think this document might be of some use to you guys (in case you haven't already come across it):
http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Recruitment-Special.pdf
See page 3 in particular. You'll notice that Osgoode and U of T place the maximum number of students on Bay Street (U of T about 93, Osgoode about 83). Queen's and Western, in comparison, place about half of that. That said, the percentage of students being hired from Queen's, Western and Osgoode, as you'll note, is only minimally different (24, 22 and 27, respectively).
I realize @vanessadfisher628 actually mentioned in her original post that corporate law wasn't something she was entirely sure she wanted to pursue - in which case I'd suggest the 'prestige' of schools in Canada begins to matter less so once we move away from corporate law. There is no particular evidence which alludes to the fact that a given Ontario school outdoes another in areas outside of corporate law. Most Ontario schools (especially U of T, Osgoode, Western and Queen's) are equipped with a strong faculty, clinics and offer a range of courses in various areas of law. I suggest you check out lawstudents.ca (in case you haven't already) if you want more specificity from Canadian lawyers and/or law students. The general consensus though, from most posters on that forum, seems to be that unless you're pursuing a strong interest in corporate law, there's no reason to believe that you'd be at a disadvantage from attending any of the other aforementioned law schools.
Ultimately, the Canadian system is designed in a manner in which schools don't necessarily open doors for people; academically strong students open doors for themselves. There is generally a high correlation between grades and 2L summer jobs/post-law school jobs. A B average student from Oz isn't going to get the same number of interviews as an A student from Queen's/Western (despite their lack of a reputation relative to Oz/U of T).
@leo555 said:
@atanasdimitrov322 said:
WHAT'S CRACKING MY FELLOW CANUCKS.
So I think this document might be of some use to you guys (in case you haven't already come across it):
http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Recruitment-Special.pdf
See page 3 in particular. You'll notice that Osgoode and U of T place the maximum number of students on Bay Street (U of T about 93, Osgoode about 83). Queen's and Western, in comparison, place about half of that. That said, the percentage of students being hired from Queen's, Western and Osgoode, as you'll note, is only minimally different (24, 22 and 27, respectively).
I realize @vanessadfisher628 actually mentioned in her original post that corporate law wasn't something she was entirely sure she wanted to pursue - in which case I'd suggest the 'prestige' of schools in Canada begins to matter less so once we move away from corporate law. There is no particular evidence which alludes to the fact that a given Ontario school outdoes another in areas outside of corporate law. Most Ontario schools (especially U of T, Osgoode, Western and Queen's) are equipped with a strong faculty, clinics and offer a range of courses in various areas of law. I suggest you check out lawstudents.ca (in case you haven't already) if you want more specificity from Canadian lawyers and/or law students. The general consensus though, from most posters on that forum, seems to be that unless you're pursuing a strong interest in corporate law, there's no reason to believe that you'd be at a disadvantage from attending any of the other aforementioned law schools.
Ultimately, the Canadian system is designed in a manner in which schools don't necessarily open doors for people; academically strong students open doors for themselves. There is generally a high correlation between grades and 2L summer jobs/post-law school jobs. A B average student from Oz isn't going to get the same number of interviews as an A student from Queen's/Western (despite their lack of a reputation relative to Oz/U of T).
Haven't been called a Canuck in long time, I am getting a little homesick lol :). Thank you for this, I may just apply to Canadian schools too , assuming I can find it within me to deal with snow again hahaha :smile:
You're welcome! Actually, the last two winters haven't been too bad in Toronto. Besides (since I see that you seem to be interested in U of T), U of T's law building is right outside the Museum subway station. Like a 2 min walk, at max - so you won't be out for too long. If you have the scores, you should definitely consider applying. Moreover, U of T doesn't require any LOR's - so that's one less thing to worry about. Just a PS and your scores.
I think I need to be taking a trip to Canada next time I have a vacation (probably sometime this late summer)
@atanasdimitrov322 said:
@uhinberg359 said:
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@uhinberg359 you could always come here :)
Don't tempt me more than I already am.... lol It seems that NYC law / finance is where I belong for now. Though I'd love to throw it all away, become a citizen, and enjoy the beauty of Canada and its much more sane legal educational system. :)
(lowkey blushed. we always feel v. nice when appreciated)
I (3 Canadians. Anytime I've travelled there they've all been so kind!(/p)
Also, really nice to have a little Canadian corner here :)
Oh wow, that's interesting. I've actually read the opposite—that the LSAT score is usually a better indicator of how well a student does in law school than GPA or other factors. I wonder where their data is from.
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@uhinberg359
Couldn't agree more. Always shoot for your dreams, but also have a back up plan :)
Imagine if no one ever went for those unicorn dreams!? Someone's got to be getting them, might as well try if you want one. I don't ever want to come off as discouraging to anyone on this forum, rather just the opposite! :)
@vanessadfisher628 said:
Agree with previous comments.
Also just to add that I think that while it is true that all of law is competitive, I don't think we can actually say other law jobs are equally difficult to get as a professorship. Getting a job in legal academia is way harder than securing a job as a civil litigator or a series of other jobs that have higher demand. It is still competitive to get a good job of course, but I don't think comparable to trying to make it as an academic.
Also, this field is really changing, as I mentioned. I've also known a couple tenured professors (in philosophy, not law) that left because of how bad the politics were in academic culture. Just saying, it's worth keeping other options open :)
Yeah, exactly. I mean the numbers dictate those jobs in legal academia are going to be the hardest to get compared to most other legal jobs. There are just so few openings, professor tend to stay until their 80, and you need to be a the top of your class, usually at a HYS. They also pay well and require way less work than a traditional, say, M&A associate at a firm.
There's really few comparisons to how hard it is to get these jobs. The data almost makes it seem impossible. I'm always going for your dreams though -- I just would have a plan B you're okay with, lol.
@atanasdimitrov322 said:
@leo555 said:
@atanasdimitrov322 said:
WHAT'S CRACKING MY FELLOW CANUCKS.
So I think this document might be of some use to you guys (in case you haven't already come across it):
http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Recruitment-Special.pdf
See page 3 in particular. You'll notice that Osgoode and U of T place the maximum number of students on Bay Street (U of T about 93, Osgoode about 83). Queen's and Western, in comparison, place about half of that. That said, the percentage of students being hired from Queen's, Western and Osgoode, as you'll note, is only minimally different (24, 22 and 27, respectively).
I realize @vanessadfisher628 actually mentioned in her original post that corporate law wasn't something she was entirely sure she wanted to pursue - in which case I'd suggest the 'prestige' of schools in Canada begins to matter less so once we move away from corporate law. There is no particular evidence which alludes to the fact that a given Ontario school outdoes another in areas outside of corporate law. Most Ontario schools (especially U of T, Osgoode, Western and Queen's) are equipped with a strong faculty, clinics and offer a range of courses in various areas of law. I suggest you check out lawstudents.ca (in case you haven't already) if you want more specificity from Canadian lawyers and/or law students. The general consensus though, from most posters on that forum, seems to be that unless you're pursuing a strong interest in corporate law, there's no reason to believe that you'd be at a disadvantage from attending any of the other aforementioned law schools.
Ultimately, the Canadian system is designed in a manner in which schools don't necessarily open doors for people; academically strong students open doors for themselves. There is generally a high correlation between grades and 2L summer jobs/post-law school jobs. A B average student from Oz isn't going to get the same number of interviews as an A student from Queen's/Western (despite their lack of a reputation relative to Oz/U of T).
Haven't been called a Canuck in long time, I am getting a little homesick lol :). Thank you for this, I may just apply to Canadian schools too , assuming I can find it within me to deal with snow again hahaha :smile:
You're welcome! Actually, the last two winters haven't been too bad in Toronto. Besides (since I see that you seem to be interested in U of T), U of T's law building is right outside the Museum subway station. Like a 2 min walk, at max - so you won't be out for too long. If you have the scores, you should definitely consider applying. Moreover, U of T doesn't require any LOR's - so that's one less thing to worry about. Just a PS and your scores.
U of T and Osgoode are definitely both Canadian schools I am aiming for if I decide to go back home for law school for sure :). U of Ts campus is simply beautiful and downtown Toronto is has always been one of my favorite places. Thank you for the information that certainly does help. Texas has really spoiled me with the weather so we shall see. I am aiming for a 165 lowest 160 and my gpa is high so we shall see what the future holds :).
@mnrahall476
thanks! I appreciate the added thoughts and you make some really good points.
One thing you spoke to, which I think is really valuable to consider, is the fact that one could do a JD here in Canada (for cheaper) from a good school, and then potentially do masters or PhD work at a prestigious school, like Yale, down the road if one decides they really want to go the academic route. I think this is a totally valid point. I've heard some others that have gone this route, and I have heard that it is easier to become a law prof in Canada if you at least do some of your graduate or post-graduate work outside of Canada.
It may very well be worth it to have a less expensive JD that is easy to work the debt load off from and then one could potentially apply for PhD in 5 or 6 years.
I definitely feel more appreciation for the Canadian law schools after this thread. I do like to dream big and will still apply to Yale. But I probably won't know for sure what I'll decide until, as you say, the letters are in my hand!
@atanasdimitrov322
yeah totally hear that. That is one of my main concerns about studying in U.S too. Hard decisions.
Also, on a somewhat sidenote but related note, I think the U.S tuition crisis is about to be the new subprime loan crisis. I'd read journalists predicting this years ago, but kind of scary to see it playing out in real time:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/business/dealbook/student-loan-debt-collection.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share
@atanasdimitrov322 said:
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@atanasdimitrov322
yeah I did a tour of the UoT campus and it is pretty nice. Was also surprised about the no LORs.
You planning on applying to UofT or going for a less expensive school?
I'm blanketing most Ontario law schools. Would probably go to UofT in a heartbeat if I'm accepted. I went for undergrad there and I absolutely love the campus. Definitely don't want to go to a school in a city/campus I detest, lol :tongue:
Depending on my LSAT score I may also apply a few schools in the States - NU, UVA and NYU/Columbia, primarily. A Canadian law school would still be my first preference though -- primarily because of the lesser debt load.
Amen to that less $$$ load..... ;)
@vanessadfisher628 said:
Also, really nice to have a little Canadian corner here :)
I agree I really missed interacting with my fellow Canadians (3(/p)
@atanasdimitrov322 said:
WHAT'S CRACKING MY FELLOW CANUCKS.
So I think this document might be of some use to you guys (in case you haven't already come across it):
http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Recruitment-Special.pdf
See page 3 in particular. You'll notice that Osgoode and U of T place the maximum number of students on Bay Street (U of T about 93, Osgoode about 83). Queen's and Western, in comparison, place about half of that. That said, the percentage of students being hired from Queen's, Western and Osgoode, as you'll note, is only minimally different (24, 22 and 27, respectively).
I realize @vanessadfisher628 actually mentioned in her original post that corporate law wasn't something she was entirely sure she wanted to pursue - in which case I'd suggest the 'prestige' of schools in Canada begins to matter less so once we move away from corporate law. There is no particular evidence which alludes to the fact that a given Ontario school outdoes another in areas outside of corporate law. Most Ontario schools (especially U of T, Osgoode, Western and Queen's) are equipped with a strong faculty, clinics and offer a range of courses in various areas of law. I suggest you check out lawstudents.ca (in case you haven't already) if you want more specificity from Canadian lawyers and/or law students. The general consensus though, from most posters on that forum, seems to be that unless you're pursuing a strong interest in corporate law, there's no reason to believe that you'd be at a disadvantage from attending any of the other aforementioned law schools.
Ultimately, the Canadian system is designed in a manner in which schools don't necessarily open doors for people; academically strong students open doors for themselves. There is generally a high correlation between grades and 2L summer jobs/post-law school jobs. A B average student from Oz isn't going to get the same number of interviews as an A student from Queen's/Western (despite their lack of a reputation relative to Oz/U of T).
Haven't been called a Canuck in long time, I am getting a little homesick lol :). Thank you for this, I may just apply to Canadian schools too , assuming I can find it within me to deal with snow again hahaha :smile:
@atanasdimitrov322
Thanks so much for this! I'll definitely check out these resources. Appreciate the info.
Also, was just curious from your research, and based on your last paragraph. Are you saying then, if you are in Canada (and don't want to do corporate law) that you are better to go to a school where you can score top of your class than to go where the school has high prestige? It's somehow surprising to me that UofT wouldn't give you a leg up, but maybe it wouldn't if it is just more competitive to get top of class compared to other schools?
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@uhinberg359 you could always come here :)
Don't tempt me more than I already am.... lol It seems that NYC law / finance is where I belong for now. Though I'd love to throw it all away, become a citizen, and enjoy the beauty of Canada and its much more sane legal educational system. :)
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@ryancoulter96219
Thanks for the info. That is good to know. Maybe I'll look more into Queens as well.
Good luck with study and applications!
Thanks, you too!
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@uhinberg359
yeah not sure if I want to work internationally, but it would be good to have the option open.
You think Harvard is more respected than Yale internationally?
I wouldn't use the world respected, as I am not quite sure that's the correct nomenclature. HLS though does enjoy a more well known reputation internationally. It arguably has more lay prestige even here in the the US. Again, arguable. And we are in the law school bubble where we know the rating and have internalized them. Ask a random person from the streets of Queens working in a factory which school is better for law: H or Y? I think the point is the Harvard name travels farther. Internationally speaking, there is no doubt it enjoys a more well known name.
That's the thing with deciding law schools between countries and all the unfair choices law students may have to make before deciding. I think the option is always good, yeah, sure. Then again, I think the regional perspective should function as the central part of your choosing law schools.
What type of law are you most interested in? This could be a big deciding factor. If it's any sort of US corporate law, and you have the chance at HY, then I may very well consider those.
@vanessadfisher628
Concerning U of T
LSAT is still important for U of T as well I just believe that Mature category takes into consideration everything else more so than the numbers.
From the U of T website:
https://www.law.utoronto.ca/admissions/jd-admissions/admissions-policies#MatureApplicants
"_Mature Applicants
_Mature applicants are those who have or will have at least five complete years of non-academic experience by September of the year of entry. The years of non-academic experience need not be consecutive, but must have been undertaken independently of academic work. Such experience may consist of both remunerated work and unpaid labour, including the care and raising of children.
In addition to an applicant's academic record, the Committee will consider an applicant's ability to organize his or her life and work, ability to reason, analyze and engage in intellectual inquiry, and past experience. The Committee may place less emphasis on the applicant's academic record where there has been a significant lapse of time since its completion or where adverse personal or socio-economic circumstances, including linguistic and cultural barriers, have affected its development.
For those mature applicants with fewer than two years of undergraduate university study, the Admissions Committee may give greater weight to other evidence of ability to study law successfully, such as experience or success in another field of endeavour. However, in view of the large number of qualified applicants who have at some time demonstrated their academic ability in a university program, those applicants with no university will find it virtually impossible to gain admission. Over the last decade no applicants have been admitted without some university background.
There is no target or quota on the number of mature candidates admitted, but there has been a steady increase in both the number and the competitiveness of mature applicants. In recent years, approximately 300 applications have been received annually. As a result the Mature category has been virtually as competitive as the General category."__
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@928
I didn't realize there was a different LSAT median for mature students. Is that true? I'm nearly 10 years out of undergrad so I'm definitely mature student :) Good point on the LLM. I'll keep that in mind.
@ryancoulter96219
thanks and good luck! Can I ask why you chose Queens over Osgoode as an alternative to UofT? I don't know a ton about Queens.
@leo555
Nice to meet some Canadians on here too!
Yeah I have been thinking about things a lot like you. I mean, who knows, I may end up wanting to stay in the U.S., I'm just not entirely sure. I think it's kind of a political mess there right now :) That could change though. I just think Canada is a bit more stable, but I guess that could change at any time too.
Thanks for the encouragement. I'll definitely apply to Yale (still not sure about Harvard), and I guess if I get in I can decide from there. It does seem like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Oh I completely understand, believe me I think about moving back to Canada everyday. What keeps me focused is the legal educational and employment opportunities here . After hopefully attending an amazing law school, I may take the bar here and in Ontario so I have the flexibility to work with both countries. I am hoping the political climate will change as well, however don't let anybody deter you from your dreams and your goals. If Yale is where you want to be don't let anybody or anything stop you. No problem, its what us Canadians do :).
@vanessadfisher628 said:
@nikoswright351
No idea what your comment just said. I might be reading too many LR passages ;)
I meant to say that the LSAT might be a good predictor of law school success, just not for the reason the LSAC offers. The falsity of the LSAC's claim that it's a good predictor because it's a good aptitude test is not sufficient to conclude the LSAT isn't a good predictor of law school success - it might just be that the LSAT weeds out those who aren't dedicated enough for law school.
@nikoswright351
No idea what your comment just said. I might be reading too many LR passages ;)
@uhinberg359
I'll definitely check out the study. interesting convo for sure
@uhinberg359 said:
I'd venture to say that the best predictive value of the LSAT would be from a cold diagnostic. Hard to see how getting a good score on LSAT b/c of intensive prep, for example foo-proofing games, would be indicative of aptitude. I mean, the fact that most people can get close to perfect on games with enough practice casts a great deal of doubt on the claim that success in games is indicative of anything other than the willingness to put in a lot of work toward a goal. [That itself might help one succeed, but I don't think that's what LSAC claims it is testing for.]
Although the LSAC does not claim that the LSAT predicts law school success because it measures dedication to mastering the test, there's a non-zero number of people who state that this is precisely why the LSAT is a good predictor of law school success (where lots of dedication is necessary).
The article I provided a link to was particularly interesting to me in that it claims that LSAT has a particularly lousy correlation to L1 success for splitters. Not that law schools care about that. They'll take the high LSAT score of splitters to boost their stats, regardless of whether they truly believe that splitters have a good chance of succeeding.
@uhinberg359 Take a look at this: http://scholar.law.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1651&context=articles
This is perhaps some of what U of T is referring to when they say that recent research has caused them to put more weight on GPA.
I'd venture to say that the best predictive value of the LSAT would be from a cold diagnostic. Hard to see how getting a good score on LSAT b/c of intensive prep, for example foo-proofing games, would be indicative of aptitude. I mean, the fact that most people can get close to perfect on games with enough practice casts a great deal of doubt on the claim that success in games is indicative of anything other than the willingness to put in a lot of work toward a goal. [That itself might help one succeed, but I don't think that's what LSAC claims it is testing for.]