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Especially for those who plan to go or want to go to UPenn, what are your thoughts on the Amy Wax controversy? Amy Wax used to be a 1L professor who stated that African Americans rarely finish at the top half of her classes. She also made numerous other racist statements in the past as well.
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60 comments
@ebs1995601 said:
@tristandesinor505
If you're using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax's claims (which you did), then the timeline is an issue.
Then you should answer this question which I asked earlier.
Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in the top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?
@tristandesinor505
If you're using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax's claims (which you did), then the timeline is an issue.
@ebs1995601 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
What support do you want? He can't just release students' grades without their permission. I guess he could be more specific about top of the class as far as a percentage. But he definitely can't start telling you students names and grades. Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?
Additionally, it seems to me that the burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's. She is the one making the statistically absurd claim that for not one but 11 years no African Americans have finished in the top quarter if the class.
I'm confident that on average African Americans likely place lower in the class because they are admitted with lower LSAT scores and GPAs on average which are the best predictors we have of how people will do in law school. The same is true for legacies and people with work experience. However, I think the suggestion that no Aftican American student has placed in the top 25 percent for years strains credibility not just because Professor Wax has a clear racist political motive, but because LSAT and GPA only account for about 25 percent of the total variation in 1L grades at law schools.
Does it violates the privacy of students when statistics about groups are published? I guess a problem could arise when the group is too small. I would have liked the Dean to directly state that the black students were performing at the same level as the rest of the class. If that isn't the case, then I would have liked the Dean to explain what the school is going to do change that.
"Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change? "
The Dean's quote never said anything about the top quarter. I didn't bring up the timeline because I agree with Wax; I brought up the timeline because I think people are erroneously using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax.
"burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's"
I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to bring the statistics to the table. She was already violating policy by broadly sharing a 'trend'. But I'm going on a tangent. I don't really care about Wax or what she claims. I think the truth is somewhere between Wax and the Dean. Jumping to either side has dangerous implications.
You said the timeline was an issue. Either the timeline is an issue or it's not.
The Dean hasn't said anything remotely controversial. He said Black students have done vwry well at Penn Law. Given that's what we should expect, that some Black students would have done very well at Penn and others would have done poorly as with any other group of people in law school including other groups with lower than average LSAT scores(like those with wotk experience and alumni advantage), he really doesn't need to provide any extraordinary evidence. Given the small number of Black students at Penn Law he definitely would risk identifying someone by giving precise statistics. For an example of this just look at how people tried to find out Obama's grades using the fact that he transferred and his race.
When you make the claim as Wax did that no black students have graduated in the top quarter of the class, you need evidence. Otherwise people rightly realize you are just making up a statistic to try to stop non-white students from being admitted to your school.
Finally the truth isn't between the Dean's somewhat vague, but definitely true statements and Wax's blatant lie.
I would have liked the Dean to fire Wax for making up negative statistics to slander African American students at Penn.
@tristandesinor505 said:
What support do you want? He can't just release students' grades without their permission. I guess he could be more specific about top of the class as far as a percentage. But he definitely can't start telling you students names and grades. Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?
Additionally, it seems to me that the burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's. She is the one making the statistically absurd claim that for not one but 11 years no African Americans have finished in the top quarter if the class.
I'm confident that on average African Americans likely place lower in the class because they are admitted with lower LSAT scores and GPAs on average which are the best predictors we have of how people will do in law school. The same is true for legacies and people with work experience. However, I think the suggestion that no Aftican American student has placed in the top 25 percent for years strains credibility not just because Professor Wax has a clear racist political motive, but because LSAT and GPA only account for about 25 percent of the total variation in 1L grades at law schools.
Does it violates the privacy of students when statistics about groups are published? I guess a problem could arise when the group is too small. I would have liked the Dean to directly state that the black students were performing at the same level as the rest of the class. If that isn't the case, then I would have liked the Dean to explain what the school is going to do change that.
"Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change? "
The Dean's quote never said anything about the top quarter. I didn't bring up the timeline because I agree with Wax; I brought up the timeline because I think people are erroneously using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax.
"burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's"
I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to bring the statistics to the table. She was already violating policy by broadly sharing a 'trend'. But I'm going on a tangent. I don't really care about Wax or what she claims. I think the truth is somewhere between Wax and the Dean. Jumping to either side has dangerous implications.
@ebs1995601 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@ebs1995601
"In the email, Ruger explicitly stated that her claims are false.
'[B]lack students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law, and the Law Review does not have a diversity mandate. Rather, its editors are selected based on a competitive process,' the email read. 'And contrary to any suggestion otherwise, black students at Penn Law are extremely successful, both inside and outside the classroom, in the job market, and in their careers.'"
http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/penn-law-dean-ted-ruger-professor-amy-wax-removed-racial-conservative-graduate-upenn-philadelphia
The problems I take with that quote:
'top of class' isn't clearly defined.
The school has been around since 1850. In one of her many qualifiers, Wax narrowed the timeline to 2007-2018. The Dean doesn't specifically talk about that timeline. For that reason, I don't think what the Dean said even contradicts Wax.
The Dean didn't give any numbers. For all we know, a comparatively small number of black students graduate in the top of the class each year.
Besides saying that she was wrong, I don't think the Dean provided any support.
What support do you want? He can't just release students' grades without their permission. I guess he could be more specific about top of the class as far as a percentage. But he definitely can't start telling you students names and grades. Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?
Additionally, it seems to me that the burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's. She is the one making the statistically absurd claim that for not one but 11 years no African Americans have finished in the top quarter if the class.
I'm confident that on average African Americans likely place lower in the class because they are admitted with lower LSAT scores and GPAs on average which are the best predictors we have of how people will do in law school. The same is true for legacies and people with work experience. However, I think the suggestion that no Aftican American student has placed in the top 25 percent for years strains credibility not just because Professor Wax has a clear racist political motive, but because LSAT and GPA only account for about 25 percent of the total variation in 1L grades at law schools.
@tristandesinor505 said:
@ebs1995601
"In the email, Ruger explicitly stated that her claims are false.
'[B]lack students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law, and the Law Review does not have a diversity mandate. Rather, its editors are selected based on a competitive process,' the email read. 'And contrary to any suggestion otherwise, black students at Penn Law are extremely successful, both inside and outside the classroom, in the job market, and in their careers.'"
http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/penn-law-dean-ted-ruger-professor-amy-wax-removed-racial-conservative-graduate-upenn-philadelphia
The problems I take with that quote:
'top of class' isn't clearly defined.
The school has been around since 1850. In one of her many qualifiers, Wax narrowed the timeline to 2007-2018. The Dean doesn't specifically talk about that timeline. For that reason, I don't think what the Dean said even contradicts Wax.
The Dean didn't give any numbers. For all we know, a comparatively small number of black students graduate in the top of the class each year.
Besides saying that she was wrong, I don't think the Dean provided any support.
@ebs1995601
"In the email, Ruger explicitly stated that her claims are false.
'[B]lack students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law, and the Law Review does not have a diversity mandate. Rather, its editors are selected based on a competitive process,' the email read. 'And contrary to any suggestion otherwise, black students at Penn Law are extremely successful, both inside and outside the classroom, in the job market, and in their careers.'"
http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/penn-law-dean-ted-ruger-professor-amy-wax-removed-racial-conservative-graduate-upenn-philadelphia
@tristandesinor505 said:
Thankfully, it had been definitively answered by the Dean of Penn Law though. So there really is no question that many African Americans have placed in the top quarter of the class at Penn Law and many more in the top half.
Can you direct to me to where you got that information? The only quote I saw from the Dean was:
"Black students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law"
That response contradicted Wax—if we ignore the qualifiers she sprinkled in—but left me unsatisfied.
@tristandesinor505 said:
I really take issue w all the people here who said “blacks” smh
FYI in Standard Written English 'blacks' isn't a pejorative.
@tristandesinor505 said:
I really take issue w all the people here who said “blacks” smh
Cool.
I really take issue w all the people here who said “blacks” smh
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Now I'm confused. Who said that they'd attend UPenn law if accepted? Didn't @tristandesinor505 state that he (she?) wouldn't attend (the same for Chicago), even with applications out to both? The only claim I saw here is that people (including myself) would judge UPenn holistically and not on the basis of Wax.
As for the modal claim about what blacks "can" do, I wouldn't have even engaged in discussion on here if I interpreted someone as actually floating that claim. Obviously, you're well on your way to bigotry once you start trafficking in such claims (em, as in the general "you"). The idea I took people to be considering was whether, as a matter of fact, blacks haven't done [fill in the blank about academic achievement at UPenn]. That's an empirical claim--one that I seriously doubt when filled in as Wax filled it in, but it may very well be true. I just don't have access to the numbers to say definitively one way or the other (and I doubt that she did either). I just thought it was interesting to think about what one should say if one granted such empirical claims to Wax. It doesn't seem to me that what one should say is anything close to what Wax has said. I'm honestly most surprised that the interviewer (Glenn Loury) seemed to agree almost all of what she put out there.
Thankfully, it had been definitively answered by the Dean of Penn Law though. So there really is no question that many African Americans have placed in the top quarter of the class at Penn Law and many more in the top half. Continuing to act like this is an open question or accepting Wax's premises for the sake of argument doesn't make sense when you know they are false.
Two things. Just because the dean said that in a statement doesn't mean its true. Unfortunately, in today's climate, public statements cannot just be taken on faith, even if they are one's in which one wants to believe.--I happen to believe the dean's statement though, and took up the question from the position of someone who might have been more skeptical of the epistemic value of those comments.
The second point is that the discussion doesn't have to do with Wax, per se. One can imagine circumstances where such comments are made and they have more merit to them as far as empirical support. In such conceivable circumstances, I think that it is important to question any Wax-like conclusions which might be drawn from it. I entertained the hypothetical with that in mind.
First of all, the Dean really couldn't have easilly been lying. Doing so would run the risk of others who know the truth correcting him. The circle of people who know something of the grade distribution at Penn is probably fairly small, but far bigger than it might seem at first glance. Other administrators know. However, so do employers. If there are employers who have interviewed hundereds of people from the top of Penn's class and none of them were Black, they could reveal the Dean if he was lying. He would obviously be hesitant to generate the kind of huge negative publicity such a revealed lie would bring. Additionally, things like the fact that the law review is not selected based on race (Wax claimed it was) and thus that the Black members of Penn's Law Review over the years have probably nearly universally either done very well in Penn or done very well on the write-in competition would be even harder to make up. There are probably at least several if not dozens of different Penn Law students making those decisions about law review members every year who would know if race were a factor being used. Since it isn't and Black students have been on it, we know Black students sometimes do very well at Penn in terms of 1L grades.
Additionally, I do not think that imagining a hypothetical world where Wax is right would do any good. First of all, such a world would need a number of things resolved. The first thing would be how could Black students at Penn end up never making the top quarter of their class and only rarely be making the top half. LSAT scores and GPA could not explain that result because people with low LSAT scores and GPAs compared to their peers regularly end up getting good grades because those two variables combined only explain about 25 percent of the variation in first year grades. The answer to how Black students could be so unlikely to get top grades in your hypothetical would have to be an astonishing degree of racism in grading of exams. But of course since this isn't real it doesn't make sense for anyone to boycott Penn over their endemic racist grading policies. Instead, we should probably stick with a consideration of what to do in response to the actual problem that Penn is employing a racist professor who makes up negative claims about Black students at Penn in order to bolster racist internet trolls arguments that Blacks should be kept out of law schools for their own good.
I started to write up (much earlier) an account of how actually extraordinary Wax's claims would have to be in order to be satisfied which referenced the points you raise for the particular hypothetical you consider (in particular, the point about the (extreme) inability of the predicative validity of UGPA/LSAT distributions to fund her claims about grade distributions). I thought that, given that this discussion has been far longer than I originally intended, I should probably spare myself and others. So just a few comments (in reverse order):
(1) I took it that the point in entertaining these sorts of claims is not that they are true nor that they are nearly so. Rather, it the point is that they are outrageous. But I also took it that that questioning the conclusions that we are to supposedly draw (according to Wax), if they were true was instructive in other, more realistic cases (in roughly the same spirit). These are cases where the claims made have nothing to do with Wax or UPenn in particular (I think you can drum up a few examples of the usual suspects). My thought is that if the arguments don't work in the most opportune case for the person who makes Wax-like claims, then they certainly don't work in the less opportune, more realistic cases. Considering the hypotheticals in this spirit isn't out of step with the focus that you urge we have about UPenn.
(2) ...more importantly somehow either my doing so (i.e., entertaining outrageous claims) or others with whom I was engaging gave off the impression that we were debating whether blacks were smart enough to get good grades at UPenn. I would've thought that, at least for my part, this was an impossible interpretation unless I'm some kind of real-life incarnation of Clayton Bigsby. But I would've thought that went without saying.
(3) I also agree(d) with the Dean, and for some of the reasons you mentioned (but more so because of the extraordinary consequences the truth Wax's claims would entail (assuming no grade manipulation, etc.)). I guess I take a more cynical view towards public statements regarding information accessible to a small number which is politically salient.--But, hey, maybe I'm just too much of a pessimist as far as that's concerned!... I don't know if anyone can blame me nowadays.
(4) Yeah, not sure about attempts to use governments on here. I'd call doxing if it much mattered :/
@tristandesinor505 said:
@hildaakua158
Whatever your motives, don't out people. Ask in a message if you have to ask.
Agreed. Let's stay on topic.
@hildaakua158
Whatever your motives, don't out people. Ask in a message if you have to ask.
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Now I'm confused. Who said that they'd attend UPenn law if accepted? Didn't @tristandesinor505 state that he (she?) wouldn't attend (the same for Chicago), even with applications out to both? The only claim I saw here is that people (including myself) would judge UPenn holistically and not on the basis of Wax.
As for the modal claim about what blacks "can" do, I wouldn't have even engaged in discussion on here if I interpreted someone as actually floating that claim. Obviously, you're well on your way to bigotry once you start trafficking in such claims (em, as in the general "you"). The idea I took people to be considering was whether, as a matter of fact, blacks haven't done [fill in the blank about academic achievement at UPenn]. That's an empirical claim--one that I seriously doubt when filled in as Wax filled it in, but it may very well be true. I just don't have access to the numbers to say definitively one way or the other (and I doubt that she did either). I just thought it was interesting to think about what one should say if one granted such empirical claims to Wax. It doesn't seem to me that what one should say is anything close to what Wax has said. I'm honestly most surprised that the interviewer (Glenn Loury) seemed to agree almost all of what she put out there.
Thankfully, it had been definitively answered by the Dean of Penn Law though. So there really is no question that many African Americans have placed in the top quarter of the class at Penn Law and many more in the top half. Continuing to act like this is an open question or accepting Wax's premises for the sake of argument doesn't make sense when you know they are false.
Two things. Just because the dean said that in a statement doesn't mean its true. Unfortunately, in today's climate, public statements cannot just be taken on faith, even if they are one's in which one wants to believe.--I happen to believe the dean's statement though, and took up the question from the position of someone who might have been more skeptical of the epistemic value of those comments.
The second point is that the discussion doesn't have to do with Wax, per se. One can imagine circumstances where such comments are made and they have more merit to them as far as empirical support. In such conceivable circumstances, I think that it is important to question any Wax-like conclusions which might be drawn from it. I entertained the hypothetical with that in mind.
First of all, the Dean really couldn't have easilly been lying. Doing so would run the risk of others who know the truth correcting him. The circle of people who know something of the grade distribution at Penn is probably fairly small, but far bigger than it might seem at first glance. Other administrators know. However, so do employers. If there are employers who have interviewed hundereds of people from the top of Penn's class and none of them were Black, they could reveal the Dean if he was lying. He would obviously be hesitant to generate the kind of huge negative publicity such a revealed lie would bring. Additionally, things like the fact that the law review is not selected based on race (Wax claimed it was) and thus that the Black members of Penn's Law Review over the years have probably nearly universally either done very well in Penn or done very well on the write-in competition would be even harder to make up. There are probably at least several if not dozens of different Penn Law students making those decisions about law review members every year who would know if race were a factor being used. Since it isn't and Black students have been on it, we know Black students sometimes do very well at Penn in terms of 1L grades.
Additionally, I do not think that imagining a hypothetical world where Wax is right would do any good. First of all, such a world would need a number of things resolved. The first thing would be how could Black students at Penn end up never making the top quarter of their class and only rarely be making the top half. LSAT scores and GPA could not explain that result because people with low LSAT scores and GPAs compared to their peers regularly end up getting good grades because those two variables combined only explain about 25 percent of the variation in first year grades. The answer to how Black students could be so unlikely to get top grades in your hypothetical would have to be an astonishing degree of racism in grading of exams. But of course since this isn't real it doesn't make sense for anyone to boycott Penn over their endemic racist grading policies. Instead, we should probably stick with a consideration of what to do in response to the actual problem that Penn is employing a racist professor who makes up negative claims about Black students at Penn in order to bolster racist internet trolls arguments that Blacks should be kept out of law schools for their own good.
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
This thread is very bothersome. I thought this was a community to uplift and encourage each other.
I don't know if anything that has been said is incompatible with these aims. As far as the delicate subject-matter, I take people to have been pretty non-hostile to be honest. I think people were just trying to articulate their respective views about how the Wax scandal affects/should affect law school deliberations (this involved a good deal more than just that question, but that's the way these things go). Were it negative, I probably would have let the discussion be and it probably would have been locked out already (I think 7sage generally does this, no?).
Granted, the discussion is tiresome in a way, given its trigger; but, alas, the dynamics of social media! Luckily most posts on here are about smaller, immediate issues regarding the LSAT and admissions. A saving grace--A.c.S
Admin note: edited (the comment reveals personal information without consent)
@tristandesinor505 said:
This thread is very bothersome. I thought this was a community to uplift and encourage each other.
I agree. Some of the comments made on this thread about African Americans and the suggestion that Wax was correct shocked and disheartened me.
@tristandesinor505 said:
This thread is very bothersome. I thought this was a community to uplift and encourage each other.
I don't know if anything that has been said is incompatible with these aims. As far as the delicate subject-matter, I take people to have been pretty non-hostile to be honest. I think people were just trying to articulate their respective views about how the Wax scandal affects/should affect law school deliberations (this involved a good deal more than just that question, but that's the way these things go). Were it negative, I probably would have let the discussion be and it probably would have been locked out already (I think 7sage generally does this, no?).
Granted, the discussion is tiresome in a way, given its trigger; but, alas, the dynamics of social media! Luckily most posts on here are about smaller, immediate issues regarding the LSAT and admissions. A saving grace--A.c.S
This thread is very bothersome. I thought this was a community to uplift and encourage each other.
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Now I'm confused. Who said that they'd attend UPenn law if accepted? Didn't @tristandesinor505 state that he (she?) wouldn't attend (the same for Chicago), even with applications out to both? The only claim I saw here is that people (including myself) would judge UPenn holistically and not on the basis of Wax.
As for the modal claim about what blacks "can" do, I wouldn't have even engaged in discussion on here if I interpreted someone as actually floating that claim. Obviously, you're well on your way to bigotry once you start trafficking in such claims (em, as in the general "you"). The idea I took people to be considering was whether, as a matter of fact, blacks haven't done [fill in the blank about academic achievement at UPenn]. That's an empirical claim--one that I seriously doubt when filled in as Wax filled it in, but it may very well be true. I just don't have access to the numbers to say definitively one way or the other (and I doubt that she did either). I just thought it was interesting to think about what one should say if one granted such empirical claims to Wax. It doesn't seem to me that what one should say is anything close to what Wax has said. I'm honestly most surprised that the interviewer (Glenn Loury) seemed to agree almost all of what she put out there.
Thankfully, it had been definitively answered by the Dean of Penn Law though. So there really is no question that many African Americans have placed in the top quarter of the class at Penn Law and many more in the top half. Continuing to act like this is an open question or accepting Wax's premises for the sake of argument doesn't make sense when you know they are false.
Two things. Just because the dean said that in a statement doesn't mean its true. Unfortunately, in today's climate, public statements cannot just be taken on faith, even if they are one's in which one wants to believe.--I happen to believe the dean's statement though, and took up the question from the position of someone who might have been more skeptical of the epistemic value of those comments.
The second point is that the discussion doesn't have to do with Wax, per se. One can imagine circumstances where such comments are made and they have more merit to them as far as empirical support. In such conceivable circumstances, I think that it is important to question any Wax-like conclusions which might be drawn from it. I entertained the hypothetical with that in mind.
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Now I'm confused. Who said that they'd attend UPenn law if accepted? Didn't @tristandesinor505 state that he (she?) wouldn't attend (the same for Chicago), even with applications out to both? The only claim I saw here is that people (including myself) would judge UPenn holistically and not on the basis of Wax.
As for the modal claim about what blacks "can" do, I wouldn't have even engaged in discussion on here if I interpreted someone as actually floating that claim. Obviously, you're well on your way to bigotry once you start trafficking in such claims (em, as in the general "you"). The idea I took people to be considering was whether, as a matter of fact, blacks haven't done [fill in the blank about academic achievement at UPenn]. That's an empirical claim--one that I seriously doubt when filled in as Wax filled it in, but it may very well be true. I just don't have access to the numbers to say definitively one way or the other (and I doubt that she did either). I just thought it was interesting to think about what one should say if one granted such empirical claims to Wax. It doesn't seem to me that what one should say is anything close to what Wax has said. I'm honestly most surprised that the interviewer (Glenn Loury) seemed to agree almost all of what she put out there.
Thankfully, it had been definitively answered by the Dean of Penn Law though. So there really is no question that many African Americans have placed in the top quarter of the class at Penn Law and many more in the top half. Continuing to act like this is an open question or accepting Wax's premises for the sake of argument doesn't make sense when you know they are false.
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Either you misread my post or it was unclear. I won't attend Penn if accepted. I think it's still worth not withdrawing for the potential scholarship leverage over other schools.
Other than that we are on the same page.
Ah I see; apologies. I misread.
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Now I'm confused. Who said that they'd attend UPenn law if accepted? Didn't @tristandesinor505 state that he (she?) wouldn't attend (the same for Chicago), even with applications out to both? The only claim I saw here is that people (including myself) would judge UPenn holistically and not on the basis of Wax.
As for the modal claim about what blacks "can" do, I wouldn't have even engaged in discussion on here if I interpreted someone as actually floating that claim. Obviously, you're well on your way to bigotry once you start trafficking in such claims (em, as in the general "you"). The idea I took people to be considering was whether, as a matter of fact, blacks haven't done [fill in the blank about academic achievement at UPenn]. That's an empirical claim--one that I seriously doubt when filled in as Wax filled it in, but it may very well be true. I just don't have access to the numbers to say definitively one way or the other (and I doubt that she did either). I just thought it was interesting to think about what one should say if one granted such empirical claims to Wax. It doesn't seem to me that what one should say is anything close to what Wax has said. I'm honestly most surprised that the interviewer (Glenn Loury) seemed to agree almost all of what she put out there.
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
It certainly seems awful to me that Prof Wax's absurd statement that African American students rarely end up in the top half of their class and never in the top quarter is being treated not as the racist and incorrect lie which it demonstrably is, but as an invitation to try to guess how few African American students end up in the top quarter or half.
The reason Wax was claiming African American students don't succeed in top law schools was not because she was nearly making an important point, but because she needed a pre-text to argue not to accept African American students.
I agree; debating the percentage of african americans at the top of their class somehow became a topic of discussion amongst some on this thread even though the orginal post was not about that at all.
I agree with your plan to attent UPenn if accepted. I think it's a personal decision and you should absolutely attend if it works with your vision.
Either you misread my post or it was unclear. I won't attend Penn if accepted. I think it's still worth not withdrawing for the potential scholarship leverage over other schools.
Other than that we are on the same page.
@acsimon699 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@acsimon699 said:
Yeah, then I was just mistaken in my interpretation. That was my other hypothesis, but I just didn’t know to whom you might be referring (someone specific, or just a general claim about who might be impressionable) if not the dean.
I was responding to someone in particular.
On a separate note I’d like to point out that there are people on this thread who are actually debating whether or not African Americans are smart enough to graduate at the top of their class which is pretty abhorrent. But don’t mind me. Carry on with your debate...
...? But that’s not the topic being discussed.
There were those on this thread who were indeed discussing it. The overall post was asking the reaction to the UPenn scandal. I'm not sure why individuals would bring up stats on African Americans specfically during law school and debate whether or not Blacks are smart enough to score in the top of their classes. But again, they should carry on with their debate if they can't help themselves...