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So I have now taken the LSAT 3 times, and I'm beyond frustrated. I took the LSAT for the first time OCT, 2013 after 6 months of study self-study and a 7Sage course. This first round I was studying at least 5 hours per day. At that time I was PT scoring in the high 160's and low 170's. However, I scored a 161. [RC -8, LG -1, LR 1&2 -16 (bombed LR)]
I decided to wait and reconsider law school. I decided to take the LSAT again December 2014, and after 3 months of less intensive studying (I felt I burnt out the first time) I was PTing again in the high 160's and low 170's. However, I scored a 161! I couldn't believe it. (RC -7, LG -9, LR 1&2 -10). I failed in games and knew it during the test. I neglected it as the easy section as I never had a problem with it.
So, I studied games intensively and retook it in February. Bit of a panic leading up to this test: Had a flat tire on my BMW (no spare) half way to the test center 40 miles away, thought I was going to miss the test, was able to get there 5 minutes late and still get in, and then someone got kicked out for cheating which caused a scene. However, I scored a 161!
How is that even possible three 161's?!
Should I give up? Literally give up on my dreams of going to a top law school? I can't improve my RC as it always lands around -7 to -10, I get my LR to around -2 or -3 per section while PTing, and get my LG to -0 while PTing. But I'm cursed with this 161.
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NP... btw I love Nietzche too... Brian Leiter who is one of my fav. profs and in all likelihood will teach you Jurisprudence and Evidence if you end up at Chicago is a world renowned authority on him. More over he is referenced SO MANY times by Kevin Conroy in various Batman renditions.. that makes him THAT much cooler :)
@alexandershort4891 Short Thank you for your humbling response. You are correct to have revealed my flawed thinking. That mind set, in itself, is enough to prevent success. After having read all of these generous responses I am forced to admit that I deluded myself into thinking that I had done all that I could. For that I am thankful, because I know that with the PROPER approach there should be improvement, and that failure to improve is most likely my failing to approach it correctly. So, as many of you have said, I need to break down RC into smaller areas and develop fundamental skills to tackle the whole.
@nielsinha488 S thank you, again, for all of your advice. I do need to develop consistency. It shouldn't be a coin toss on test day. Many of the suggestions presented in this thread will help that, and I will implement and review them when I resume studying. And thanks for the Nietzche reference (big fan).
@alexandershort4891 I agree in principle with everything you have said, but I can totally see why @hickmanjames2604 feels the way he does... a 161 three times on the test can leave you feeling a little shocked and give you a sensation akin to "wtf is GOING ON HERE"... self doubt begins to creep in... the mind begins to play games with you... that said... James Dean, I think that you have it in you to score more... I was looking at your numbers... you say that you were scoring consistently into the high 160s low 170s... yet you got 161, 161, 161... agreed and fair... and lets also agree with your assumption (which I think is not accurate) that you can't improve on RC.. however, I don't think reading comp is the only contributor there... Lets take a 8 on the reading comp... not a 7 nor a 10... even if you get 7 more questions wrong... - 1 on the LG and - 6 on the LR... you should still get a 165 odd score... that you are capable of this is indicated by your PT scores... this leads me to conclude that while you have the ability to score at least in the high 160s... you do not yet have the consistency to do it - the numbers you give definitely seem to show that this is the case. This means 1) plenty more BR done the right way; 2) smart (and not just hard), systematic planning of drills and PTs - use an excel document to track your weak points and eliminate them & 3) you taking @jinadarcy0610262 's advice on the break... that 7sager gives some of the best prep advice on the forum and I would highly recommend taking it - a break apart from giving you much needed rest will help give your mind the space it needs to cement the subconscious connections it has made during your extended process of preparation ... and yes... do yourself a favor and hard though it is (and it IS hard) stop thinking about the string of 161s and the fact that you can't improve at RC... remember what Nietzche said about the abyss gazing into you if you gaze too long into it ;) !!!
I usually don't offer advice or comment on people's situations, but having read most of the replies and the OP's responses, I feel as though I should.
James Dean,
By reading about you, your scores, background info, as well as your goals, it baffles me to read some of the stuff you have said. You're clearly an articulate individual, and you have done rather well (although not consistently) on the LSAT. You have high goals, which require hard work, and it appears to me you've given up before the battle begun.
With regards to your RC being -7 to -10 on every test, you wrote:
"... because I have been unable to improve it, I've accepted that I'm a below average reader."
Really? I am gonna call bs on that. Just because you've been unable to improve does not mean you are below average when it comes to reading. In fact, the success you have seen for LR suggests you are an above average reader. You also said "reviewing doesn't help me". Maybe you are doing it wrong, or maybe you haven't had enough practice for RC, or maybe the recent LSATs being more difficult in the RC sections threw you for a loop...
Either way, please, look at how many different people - all of whom are likely busy and facing very similar challenges as you are - came out and have offered serious insight and advice for you. To respond to them by saying 'well, poor me, it's all over now' indicates to me that you are not resilient enough for this. I don't think any less of you bc you had 3 scores of 161.
jdawg is absolutely right in everything he has said to you, and I would strongly recommend you review what he posted. You stand to gain nothing by applying now, while you stand to seriously improve your chances at any school you apply to if you recognize that a retake is your best bet.
This is likely one of the only times in your life when your own discipline and hard work in 3 months can change your professional future by quite a bit. Lift your head up, and go for it. I'll be rooting for ya.
I see! I've struggled with RC but hopefully all of the extra work that im implementing will be worth it!
@hickmanjames2604 no problem. I know how it feels but the more you practice, the better you will get at this... Main points in RCs can be tough to get at times...but even if that is the case, you can increase your chances even if you guess by eliminating some of the answers that have patent defects. For example... let us say that a passage says:
"A number of things, which would ordinarily be considered as personal impediments in an individual such as reclusive behavior, mercurial temperament and a struggle with alcoholism, actually had a profound effect on Jackson Pollock's style and contributed to his rise as a major figure in the abstract expressionist movement."
In an MP question, some common defects you will see is that an answer will be too narrow i.e. Jackson Pollock's mercurial personality contributed to his rise as a major figure in the abstract expressionist movement... this answer will be wrong as it is TOO NARROW... it does not make mention of his alcoholism or his reclusive nature... Some will be too broad/out of scope... i.e. Things ordinarily considered personal impediments helped made Jackson Pollock the BIGGEST figure in the abstract expressionist movement... This is wrong as it goes WAY BEYOND the scope of the passage... we don't know if Pollock was the biggest figure... all we know is that he was a major figure... if you can eliminate even a couple like this, your chances of guessing the right answer become much better... all these require you to do is to read the passage... sometimes... when you can't pinpoint the best answer, its better to eliminate the obviously wrong ones... and yes developing a system of notation actually helps in this type of question...
Definitely get the economist and deconstruct the passages... alternatively if you want we might be able to do a couple of LSAT exercises and compare notes.
@nielsinha488 S Thank you for the RC recommendations. I'm so far from being able to succeed in your methods. I'm actually surprised I score as high as I do on RC, because it's not uncommon for me to read it and have no idea what the main point is... re-read it and still have no idea. I may just sign up for the economist, as you have suggested, and force myself to deconstruct the passages.
@licknee10505 no problem... I just shared what I got from the RC guide I used and what worked for me.... I would usually be able to break up most passages like this though some (very few) were just long factual narrations... even then the method helped as far as identifying the question types went. Glad this was useful.
i would kill for that 161!
@nielsinha488 such great advice for RC! Thank you!!
@hickmanjames2604 like I said... ordinarily, NW might not take you... but with work ex they might as they like that a LOT... so you definitely should put in an early app there as a reach with your current score... just don't get your hopes up too high... that said it looks like you have it in you to ace the test and improve on RC... try Manhattan RC... also... since you have 7 months... try reading the economist... .that definitely helps... remember... as @wraith985-4026 said you can improve in RC... In RC you can't train for the content of the passages... but you CAN train for the structure of the passages and types of questions... for one... an RC passage will (usually) be some variation/sequence of an argument or view (A1), support for that argument (S1), a counter argument/arguments or alternate view/ views (A2 maybe an A3 as well), support for the counter argument/arguments (S2/S3) and the author's view (AV).The degree of support for either of the arguments may vary... and the author's view will often be subtle.
Then there are certain types of questions which are standard eg. some rendition of the following: (1) what does the author mean when he uses the word "enlightened" in line 32 of the passage (you have to look at the context here) (2) what is the main point of the passage (this question is easy to get - because the wrong answers have certain patent defects eg. they are too specific or out of scope etc.) (3) what is the structure of the passage (an example of an answer for this type of question would be something like: A problem is presented, two solutions are proposed, support for each position is given and one solution is chosen over the others - proper notation helps A LOT here) (4) According to the passage some scientists/scholars/reporters/professors hold the opinion that/ have criticized (these are just a test of how well you know the passage... no higher function beyond this involved here) (5) from the passage it can be inferred that the author believes that... (now here are questions where you have to use your judgement and common sense based on what the passage conveys about the author/situation) (6) the passage provides most support for - (7) each of the following is dealt with in the passage except (8) the role of computer programmers in the passage is most analogous to (9) which of the following is dealt with in both passage A and passage B / in passage A but not passage B(10) how are the two passages related to each other
You may not be able to train for all kinds of subjects... but you CAN definitely prime your reading skills so that you look for at least some of these as you go through the passage... (1) develop a notation scheme that gets you the broad structure of the passage (2) tune your self to the different question types (3) assimilate in your prep the strategies for identifying the right answers for these standard question types. If you do this over a period of time, your RC score WILL improve. Practice some of these with passages from the economist. I was struggling with RC too before I changed my mindset....
As for your waiting a year... if you can get a great school especially a T14 of which you seem capable, then you owe it to yourself to go to the best school you can, with money if possible. I waited for 2 years to get into a school where I would be comfortable graduating from.
@mariesutton291 because the date of my Oct 2013 LSAT was early in Oct, I could take Oct 2015 LSAT. It's hard for me to give up, especially knowing that if I apply now with a 161, I could've done the same 2 years ago. I'll let you know how it goes.
@hickmanjames2604 Dean Okay, I'll be an outlier here. I reckon you could get into a strong school with your score, GPA, and background, and then you could stop torturing yourself. Just get on with applying so you don't miss more deadlines cos they're passing by!
If you perform among the top tier of students at a strong school, there will be really good job opportunities for you. I too have suffered from the trauma of three weird and frustrating LSATs (may still need therapy!) but have decided I'm definitely starting law school this year and already have very respectable acceptances to choose from.
Glad to hear you're planning on submitting some applications! Will want to know how they go and I wish you the best.
P.S. Isn't there a rule that you can't take the LSAT more than 3 times within a 2-year period? Would you have to wait till December 2015 to even be allowed to take the LSAT again? I'm not sure but worth checking and sorry if I'm mistaken.
@wraith985-4026 Wang I don't want to accept it, but because I have been unable to improve it, I've accepted that I'm a below average reader. I've tried the method recommended here in the full course, I've paid for the velocity LSAT RC course, I've used the LSAT trainer, and I've read just about every RC recommendation out there. It's ruining me. It, for me, seems like the only section that I can't drill. Reviewing doesn't help me. I could retake the same RC a month later, and miss the same amount of questions.
Fine advice given here regarding steps to take. Nothing really to add there.
I want to focus on your LSAT situation a bit more. Starting from a -7 to a -10 every time due to RC is a tough pill to swallow when a standard 170 scale is -10 to -12. You're essentially counting on perfection in LG and LR, and under test pressure that will almost never happen. Your LG and LR results flip-flopped the first two times around, indicating that you have at least the capability to do well in those sections (obviously you want to work on them now for consistency), but the bigger issue to me is that you've never demonstrated that capability in RC, *and you seem to be okay with that*.
You're handicapping yourself by just accepting that you're going to have to eat a full RC passage worth of incorrect answers every time you take the test. You would never accept that you're just going to get 25% of each LR or LG section wrong, so why are you just lying down when it comes to RC? Take this opportunity to work on your weakest section.
“The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.”
There is no time like the present :)
I'm really regretting not participating on here these last two times. I forgot how focused and motivated I was the first time because of the community.
@allisonmcmahon10493 I agree. I haven't been partaking in the LSAT prep community and everyone "out there" tells me to accept the score and apply to lower schools. They don't understand.
Unfortunately, I know Northwestern won't happen this year... I missed their application deadline. It was before the February release and I didn't want to waste the money applying without knowing my raw numbers would at least get my application a glance.
Echoing what @hickmanjames2604 and @licknee10505 have said, I would highly retake if Northwestern is your goal. You could very well have a compelling personal statement and situation where Northwestern would make an exception to take you given their normal admission stats. However, why be an exception when you have the opportunity to make yourself part of the "norm?" I'm a huge proponent of leaving minimal amount of personal success to chance. Retaking reduces the amount of chance goes into your acceptance from Northwestern, especially considering how formulaic law school admissions are. Also, let's say you retake and get into the high 170s. That opens up a slew of schools you hadn't even considered before where Northwestern becomes a safety school and you're aiming for NYU (personal preference haha). I think if you made a pro/con list, the pros are on your side. Most of the cons I believe are psychological but that's what the community is for -- a bunch of likeminded, frustrated individuals who have a more intimate understanding of what you're going through compared to those outside of the law school/LSAT community.
@hickmanjames2604 @allisonmcmahon10493 I mean I've read a few articles that not many people are attending law schools due to the cost & LSAT. Maybe since it's the end of the cycle they could accept some candidates. Some schools are weird like that. Especially if they want more people enrolled? IDK. One of my friends got accept with a 140 on the Feb LSAT last year. I mean, maybe you'll get lucky. Maybe they'll offer you money. But you won't know if you don't try. That's just how I see it.
My personal statement should be decent. I'm a first generation college student that worked and paid my way through undergrad. I've had a enough hardship to write a compelling statement. However, I'm trying not to resort to emotional appeals, though it is difficult.
@licknee10505 It appears that OP is out of college with a 3.0 so that's fixed. His best bet would be to get a higher LSAT score. Although personal statements and work experience may differentiate Applicant A from Applicant B, GPA/LSAC pretty much makes up your admission fate.
Not really. Not for Northwestern. Especially with OP's GPA a 161 wont do it. Even a 168 would be tough to get in/much more than just sticker.
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@licknee10505 I will be sending out a few applications this week. Hopefully I can leverage some serious funding. Otherwise it's another year for me.