Lawyers and happiness

J.Y. Ping

"The problem with the more prestigious jobs, said Mr. Krieger, is that they do not provide feelings of competence, autonomy or connection to others — three pillars of self-determination theory, the psychological model of human happiness on which the study was based. Public-service jobs do."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/lawyers-with-lowest-pay-report-more-happiness/

nicole.hopkins

@"J.Y. Ping" I was just thinking of this very thing while cooking some small-batch pork jowl bacon this morning.

And yet the golden shackles of law school debt incurred at T14 schools (or the kinds of school people think they **just reallyreally have to get into or they'll dieeeee**)—how does one manage that debt while working in public service jobs (likely pulling in >$45k–$60k but very rarely more than that)? Especially considering that most of the T14 are in excessively expensive metro areas (read: crazy high cost to finance cost of living if your parents or trust don't cover it). It seems to be a combination of deferment/forbearance and possibly rather modest loan forgiveness programs like the one UT offers.

Then there are those white whales of agreements that will forgive the debt entirely with 10 years of work in that kind of post—I've had a hard time figuring out exactly how to land one of those "gigs"/agreements. Do you know what the deal is with these?

The reality is that paying $3000-$4000 a month on $200k+++ (emphasis on the "+" if you couldn't tell) from a T14 will still likely take you 10 years with even very high-paying Big Law jobs, and during the first few years at least, that amount to service debt will cut your cash down to about the level it would be (after taxes) if you'd just taken one of those public service jobs that would pay ~$50k. Oh and PS, public service/public sector jobs are typically 8am-6pm M-F. Big Law? Count on 7am–10pm Monday through Saturday if you're lucky, at least for the first few years.

10 years a slave or 10 years a servant?

Alejandro

great comment!!

VegMeg55

@nicole.hopkins You deserve a standing ovation. Very, very well said. I was going to comment with something similar, but you took the words right out of my mouth said it 100x better. Also, "10 years a slave or 10 years a servant" is a really perfect quotation to highlight the debt-salary potential tradeoff that various law school choices and legal careers possess. Also, thank you @"J.Y. Ping" for posting the article. It is definitely something that all LSAT preppers should keep in mind before filling out LS applications.

Jonathan Wang

I don't think this is unique to law. Any job that pays you six figures is going to demand your soul, because the cost to the employer is about double what they actually pay you and they still need to make profit on you over the top of that in order to keep the business afloat. BigLaw is definitely not the only burnout job out there; it just happens to be the most high-profile at the moment because law school is currently the whipping boy of choice (not to say that there aren't issues with the system, just that most people piling on have zero clue how it actually works).

Loan repayment assistance isn't that hard to get at the top schools; all the T14s have it to varying degrees for their grads that want to go into public interest, and most are at least reasonably generous. So, at a Harvard or Columbia or NYU, it's actually pretty reasonable to go into nonprofit or government work right off the bat. It's the lower-ranked schools that you really need to watch out for - same tuition, much worse loan repayment assistance. There's also a federal government loan forgiveness program (the 10-year program Nicole Hopkins refers to above) which the financial aid folks at your law school of choice can help you get into, but 10 years is a long time and you never know what'll happen in the meantime.

visualcreed

Luckily, I should be able to finish Law School with under 20k debt so I should be happy at any job. If I were to have the 100k+ like most graduates I'd definitely look into public service for 10 years to get it re-payed. But then again, some people want that high paying prestigious firm job, that's cool too.

nicole.hopkins

@"Jonathan Wang" said:
I don't think this is unique to law.

But in other 6-figure professions, is the debt-to-income ratio comparable?

nicole.hopkins

@"Jonathan Wang" said:
but 10 years is a long time and you never know what'll happen in the meantime.

I'd argue the same reasoning (or caveat) should be applied to Big Law plans.

What about health issues that prevent one from working the necessary hours? What if, God forbid, a woman who graduates at 30 wants to have a baby at age 35 when she's only <5 years into paying her debt?

After 3 years at a Big Law job, if you crash and burn—what then? Maybe you've paid your debts down a bit—but really, wouldn't you rather have those 3 years of your happiness/health back and be 3 years closer to having all of it wiped out or at least subsidized?

So ... yes. A lot can happen in 10 years. Important to debunk delusions about risk mitigation, whether Big Law or Public Service.

For those who are truly interested in/called to Big Law partner tracks (several partners or former partner-trackers at my church, and it's a 100% valid pursuit that can make for happy and fulfilling lives, **if you're built for it** and **if that's what you want to do**), more power to you.

My problem is with the idea that everyone has to have Big Law dreams or at least submit to Big Law torture in order to pay debt; oh, and that everyone needs to want to fill up a swimming pool with money at some point. Because why would you go through all of that if it doesn't make your children trust funders.

Public service has, in its own right, advantages that cannot be monetized, and potentially much less sacrifice from the get-go (or at least sacrifice of a different order).

TL;DR:
There's no one-size-fits-all for law schools or careers. Too many assumptions made by young people about what they want to or will be able to or HAVE to do ... And it's just really sad to see so many sheep led to the slaughter when they'd be happier taking another less glamorous approach to career.

blah170blah

@nicole.hopkins The 10 year federal loan forgiveness program, as I understand it, is that, if you work for the government or in any public interest role for 10 years and still have debt remaining, your remaining loan balance will be forgiven. Your 10 years in the government or public interest sector do not have to be consecutive -- as long as you serve a total of 10 years of public interest, you're eligible for the program.

That being said, contrary to what a lot of people believe, public interest jobs are as competitive and if not more so than big law jobs because they not only look for a certain skillset (aka good 1L grades) but also a demonstrated commitment to the public sector. Some, definitely not all, organizations even look down on attorneys and/or law students who have a big-law background and then choose public interest (I've worked for 2 such organizations). AKA these gigs are REALLY hard to come by and typically take years in the making prior to law school (with some notable exceptions) to achieve.

To answer your question about how people stay in public servic given the low salary (coupled with tens of thousands $$ of debt), surprisingly all the attorneys that I've talked to who work in public interest LOVE their job. The ONLY downside is the pay and the hours but they love the work that they do precisely because it meets the 3 aforementioned pillars. For most of my friends who work in big law, they are lukewarm about the work that they do at best while many consider the saving grace of big law the pay. Obviously, this is all anecdotal so I don't have statistics to back this up but this seems to be the general consensus within my limited sphere.

The bottom line I've heard reiterated time and time again is this: if you love the law and want to practice law, go to law school. If you're sole desire is to make money, find something else because 1) there are no more guarantees and 2) it's a lot of risk (monetary and emotional) to take on for something you aren't passionate about doing. I think a huge reason why the article targets law school (and is the whipping boy of choice, to borrow Jonathan's terminology) is because the philsophy behind going to law school has changed very recently (arguably started around 2009/2010) while many prospective students are behind the changing times. Then again, I can't really speak to other professions because I haven't done as much research but the split between why you should go to law school (normative statement, I know) and then those who do go to law school is more pronounced than any other field that I've seen in the past 5 years.

nicole.hopkins

@blah170blah said:
To answer your question about how people stay in public servic given the low salary (coupled with tens of thousands $$ of debt), surprisingly all the attorneys that I've talked to who work in public interest LOVE their job.

If this is meant to address me—my question on that point was rhetorical :-) I'm just a white trash girl with an Ivy League education: I've never had money*, so I don't wonder how people live without it.

*(or rather, no one in my family has ever had money—working poor/lower-middle class; I'm among the very first to even approach middle class)

When I worked for the CA Legislature, I experienced this dynamic first hand. *Why* was I willing to work 7am-7pm M-F and most of the day Saturday for <$45k a year, dropping everything for last minute overnights at the Capitol?? Seriously, my hourly wage was functionally $10 an hour.

It's just a different drive in the public sector than in the private sector, and I personally find the latter to be substantially less motivating.

You'll read all about my life story in my forthcoming memoirs #sorrynotsorry For now, I'll say ... "Damn it feels good to be a gangster*"

*where gangster is public servant/public sector employee

jdawg113

and yet people get seriously offended when others ask them if they are sure they want to go the law route when they are scoring low still but are ready to just jump on in or if they are one of those people who just can't get it... This is a huge reason why people are so cautious of going into law or telling others to do it... it isn't just whether or not you like the work but if you can handle the dedication and effort needed to be in a position where you can enjoy the job you do. The way I see it is you more go for big law so you can enjoy your future, not enjoy the second of finishing school. You need to work hard to get yourself into the position where you can relax a little and really start to enjoy your work (not that there isn't people who enjoy it from the start)

blah170blah

@nicole.hopkins Haha no, I didn't meant to you. I just addressed you because you raised the question but I was speaking more broadly. Gurl, I'm excited for us to be broke together -- public service ftw!! (not to hate on big law people)

@jdawg113 I think you make an excellent point on motivation. I just really want to echo your statement re: the fact that why you enter the profession can vary from person to person but knowing what you're getting into is still very important.

J.Y. Ping

So many excellent points here!

It's hard but you can managed debt repayment while living in a big city like NYC and not working at a big law firm.

You have to look closely at your school's loan repayment assistance program and they vary greatly from school to school. For example, HLS had (probably still has) an excellent loan repayment assistance program. They first considered the kind of job with a broad definition of kinds of jobs that fall under their protection. Then they looked at how much money you make in that job and helped you out on a sliding scale from $0 (where they covered 100% of your loan payments) to $95k (ish) (where they covered 0% of your loan payments). The bureaucratic process wasn't bad. Maybe 5 pages of forms, a certification, and a large check would come in the mail for the next 6 months' worth of debt payments. You repeat the process every 6 months.

When choosing between schools (even if you think you are set on big law) ask about the specific details of that school's loan repayment assistance program because they're all very different and that program is your ticket to freedom. Then, ask to speak to an alum who's been on it for 2-3 years so you get a tangible feel of what it's like to live on it.

mes08

@blah170blah the problem with the federal loan forgiveness program is that it only forgives direct loans, not any other kind of student loan (for ex a Perkins loan) and you have to have made 120 loan repayments in order to be eligible. Also, while I haven't confirmed this, a friend of mine at NYU, who is pursuing PI law, told me that recently a cap on the amount forgiven has been implemented. I can't remember, but I think he said it is now at $100 or $150k. While it really does help for those of us considering public interest law, people should still carefully weigh the cost of law school.

I'm glad you mentioned that some orgs look down on people who switch from big law to public interest law. Definitely something to keep in mind. I was considering doing that if I had enormous debt to pay back.

nicole.hopkins

@mes08 said:
only forgives direct loans, not any other kind of student loan (for ex a Perkins loan) and you have to have made 120 loan repayments in order to be eligible

Yes but you can consolidate all other loans into a direct consolidation loan which IS eligible for repayment. Private loans are the only ones which can not be paid under this program.

There is no evidence of a cap on the official program's guidelines. Perhaps your friend is talking about something else—or otherwise perhaps you could provide a link to the specific section.