Great News: "Everyone Is Losing Interest In Law School"

nicole.hopkins

A quick read (and a great site for those interested in solo/boutique practice):

Everyone Is Losing Interest In Law School on Lawyerist.

It seems our timing couldn't've been better, folks; for those who are applying in next year's cycle, it may be even better.

Matt1234567

Ahh, it seems like one of the main criticisms of law school and the legal profession is that "there are no decent jobs" or that "you won't be paid enough" etc. I just want to do it because it's my passion, and the pay is secondary and even a bonus.

But aside from that, yes! Haha less competition .

nicole.hopkins

@Matt1234567 said:
I just want to do it because it's my passion, and the pay is secondary and even a bonus.

Word. The major consideration in needing to make a lot of money is needing to pay off a lot of debt. Oh, and that whole thing where people want to wear fancy suits with fancy shoes and drive fancy cars to big fancy homes. Those are the people who, IMO, are the most disappointed generally in life.

I plan to drive my Nissan Cube until it bites the dust and have no problem living in a modest apartment, even if I make the big bucks at some point. Throwing money at things is just a poor way to go about life.

Alejandro

Wohoooo! I haven't lost interest in one bit.

pritisharma

Ahhh I am actually trying to go from Engineering school to Law school ...I seem to have got it backwards :-) I have been told "Why would you want to fight about who created what, when You can do the creating :-)

danielznelson

I love articles like these. Ever since I was a 10-year-old holding mock trials during lunch hour (yes, probably everyone hated me after a few days of that schtick), I've wanted to be a lawyer. With the right intentions and passions at hand, I am fully confident that law school and the eventual progression towards being an attorney is a fulfilling venture. Today, the initial path to the end goal is only easier.

I think we should all bookmark articles such as this purely for the sake of revisiting the reality of how great an opportunity we all have. Post-graduation may still be a different story down the road, but man do we have a chance to snag the best the law school realm has to offer.

Pacifico

I like stats like these: http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/2014-2015-admissions-cycle-data-through-june-5th/

Especially the breakdown at the bottom where less than 2,500 people hit a 170+. 7Sagers FTW!

jyang72

I am still determined to go to law school because it is my dream to be a lawyer. Money is great, but life is more than money.

CrazyAmbitious

I've wanted to do law since I was 12, always been the dream plan. As I have gotten older it has only driven me more towards it. I hate the feeling of being unable to help people when things are going wrong (in a legal sense). Money is just a bonus, not a requirement. As long as I can keep up with bills and maintain a family I'm good.

In all honesty, at first I was super intimidated, and I will admit, afraid of going to law school. I'm in the process of studying up and going through this great program but fear I will not be ready for the October exam and taking it in December may completely ruin my chances of getting into a good school.... is it ridiculous to stress the big schools? I want to provide myself with the best opportunities I can create but also don't want to be in mountains of debt and blowing my brain up trying to get some crazy amazing score for Oct to go to one of the big league schools which I couldn't afford without a scholarship.... any suggestions? or advice?

Pacifico

@CrazyAmbitious Don't sweat it, there is nothing wrong with testing in December and plenty of people do it and still get admitted to every top school in the country. As long as you have your apps squared away before you take the LSAT, all you have to do is take the test and then submit all your apps. I'd say aim for October, and if you're not ready, then push back til December. Then submit your apps, and if something crazy happened during the December test then you can always retest in February and most schools will simply hold your app until that February score comes through since they can see that you're signed up for another LSAT administration. Without knowing your whole profile it's hard to say what your best choice would be or where you'd have the best shot, but your uGPA is probably better than mine and hopefully you have a few decent softs so you should definitely be able to crack the T14 with at least a 167 or so. And the T14 are the only schools one could justify paying sticker given the outcomes they offer versus everyone else. But if you got big money at a regional T20 where you wanted to practice then that could work very well for you. Regardless, this stuff is pretty far away anyways. Don't stress about any of this, just focus on your prep, decide where you want to apply (regardless of how good or bad your score is; make a school reject you, don't count yourself out), and then when apps open carve out a little time to get moving on those. But don't stress out over the application process at the expense of your LSAT prep because no matter what you do, your score is the most important thing at virtually every school.

CrazyAmbitious

@Pacifico I appreciate your help and support; seriously. It is so over whelming thinking about all of it. My uGPA was a 3.56, no where near extraordinary... and my first PT timed I got a 142. I'm almost two weeks behind my study schedule right now and that's why I'm concerned... I need the score to get into the great schools since I wasn't exactly super active in undergrad and don't have all the sparkles of the candidates that apply to those T14 schools ( nor do I have the money trees of a lot of their attendees). I know a lot of schools do rolling admissions which is what raises my stress-o-meter in racing to get things done ASAP; hence the reluctance of moving to the Dec test.

Pacifico

Applying in December is still considered relatively early in the process by most accounts. There's still plenty of money on the table during the winter that you'll be fine. Most fall admits have 3.8+/170+ type numbers anyways, so even if you applied in October, your application may never get looked at until February anyways depending on volume since most schools do not adhere to a simple first come first served rolling admissions process, it's a bit more nuanced than that and they favor the better applications up front, which appears to be an early form of yield protection. Also, my uGPA is more than half a point below yours so you're in very good shape, and don't worry about your diagnostic, it's simply a baseline to show you how much or how little you know about the test and what level your skills are at. Just use it as motivation and just focus on prep until the October test. If it's not going to happen, then the world will not end and you'll have two more months to prep, and then you can use some extra free time to work on your apps. It's far more important for you to get the highest possible LSAT score than it is to worry about when that happens. Even if you pushed back until February, a 170+ would be better than a 160 in October or a 165 in December. But if you did push back to February I would recommend taking the December just to have a score on the books, and to give yourself the opportunity to see what the real thing is like.

All that being said, relax and take a day or two off. Don't worry about the schedule, just stay focused on learning and applying skills. Pick up a copy of the LSAT Trainer if you want some time away from a computer screen. You can even just read it without doing all the exercises so you get a fresh outlook. But in general, just take it easy, overstressing serves no functional purpose to your goals so get it out of your life. Good luck!

profile427

So, now I have to wonder if I can be a bit more confident about my "flipped" numbers. My undergrad GPA was 3.867 (are all of those decimal places really necessary!?!).

I've yet to take the LSAT in October for the second time (first time in Dec 2013), and since my confidence and brain melted with working for The Man for the past six years, I feel that I'd be lucky to hit the 160s. PTing so far has improved toward the 160s, but I'm one to have low expectations so as not to be devastated (isn't there a name for that way of thinking in psych?).

If that's the case, will the T14 admission boards laugh if I try to apply, despite being blah blah cum laude in undergrad? Or maybe they'll let me in, but just charge me "full price?" Hah

NYC12345

@profile427
Does your undergraduate school give out "A+" for classes? If so, your gpa will be a lot higher because LSAC recalculates your gpa and uses A+ as 4.33. With a 3.867, however, you will need a 167+ to get into the lower T14. 3.857+166+ED Georgetown could produce a good result as well, although it's not a sure thing. Keep studying hard and push your self to improve. You can do it. I went from (147)-(157-159)-(161-163)-169, and I still have three months to go. Nothing is impossible. There are plenty of people on 7sage who scored in the 140s on their diagnostic and they improved dramatically and will be competitive applicants for the most elite law schools in the country.

NYC12345

I hate to be the messenger of bad news, but U.S. News published an article about an increase in applicants and test takers, which suggests that next cycle might be more competitive.
http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/law-admissions-lowdown/2015/02/09/law-admissions-trends-2015-applicants-should-know-about?int=a8e509
@Matt1234567
@Pacifico
@nicole.hopkins
@alejoroarios
@CrazyAmbitious

Pacifico

@profile427 there are more factors that will go into this than just your LSAT score. For example if you are a URM then your GPA would give you a shot at most of the T14 even with a 160. But of course, higher is always better!

Pacifico

@alexandergreene93 Dean Spivey has been predicting this all year and has said that this past year might be the bottoming out. However the 165+ and 170+ bands are down so far that it will likely take more time for those to rebound effectively. Just because next cycle may not be as good as last cycle doesn't mean it still won't be a historically great cycle. Additionally, there is no actual evidence of the bottoming out yet because you can't determine that until you're actually out of the bottom. Even if it bottomed out last year, it's not like the rebound will spike to a crazy all time high overnight, so this is much ado about nothing for the moment.

NYC12345

@Pacifico
+1 re your assertion about URM status and high gpa. According to LSN, appplicants with a 165 and 3.9 usually get into almost all of the T14.

profile427

@alexandergreene93 - thanks for the pep talk! I'm unsure if my undergrad does A+ grades.

@Pacifico - does being a ginger count as URM? We're an endangered species, you know...oh well. Back to studying.

nicole.hopkins

@alexandergreene93 This ... isn't exactly bad news. I welcome the competition.

CrazyAmbitious

@nicole.hopkins lol first off, I love that meme. Secondly, I completely agree with you. Despite my insecurities, I love a good competition... Makes winning ( or in this case, getting in) all that more satisfying.
"Never let the fear of losing keep you from playing the game'

I forget who said that quote, but has always stuck with me.

Also, general question here, although I am quite behind on my studies, I am still planning to take the Oct LSAT. If I do not do as well as desired, I plan to follow up with the Dec exam. Would this be advisable, or should I simply invest my energies into the Dec LSAT? In short, would repeating the exam back to back like that look negatively on my application?

nicole.hopkins

@CrazyAmbitious

Pacifico

Prep for October, take it if you are ready or close to it. Keep studying until you get your score back. If it's good, you're done, if not, keep studying and take the December test. Plenty of people take Oct/Dec and apply with two scores. It doesn't matter if they are back to back or three years apart. Schools just care about your highest score since that's what they have to report. Except Yale, Yale doesn't like people who have to take it twice. But I don't like New Haven, so Yale can take their one score preferences and enjoy all that New Haven has to offer (that's about as nicely and diplomatically as I could word that).

CrazyAmbitious

@Pacifico thanks for that, and agreed on the Yale commentary lol On the higher end I am aiming for Georgetown (perhaps super unlikely but hey, why not reach for the stars?) otherwise I'm looking towards UF for that wonderful in state tuition

nicole.hopkins

@Pacifico said:
Schools just care about your highest score since that's what they have to report.

I feel like this comes up all the time. Some schools (NYU) DO average scores and others consider all scores (Texas), just to name 2 examples.

NYU: http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/applicants/jdapplicationfaq#7

If I take the LSAT more than once, does the Committee see the higher score?

Yes, but they evaluate based on the average score in most cases. The Committee may take special circumstances into account. If a candidate can point out specific reasons why the Committee should consider an LSAT score aberrant, they should detail those reasons in an addendum to the personal statement.

Texas: https://www.utexas.edu/law/admissions/jd/faqs.php

If I take the LSAT more than once, which score does UT use?

Candidates with multiple LSAT scores will be evaluated using all reported scores. However, the Law School will no longer solely consider an applicant’s average score in the admissions review process.

Pacifico

I still think every school that pretends they don't only care about the highest score is full of it. I think they just do that to scare some people into self-dinging.

nicole.hopkins

@Pacifico said:
scare some people into self-dinging.

Ah yes, the Admissions equivalent of "Beware of Dog" signage in the absence of a dog ...

NYC12345

If someone takes the LSAT twice and scores a 140 on the first try and a 180 on the second try, there is no way that NYU will view it as a 160. They'll offer that applicant an apartment in the West Village to come to their school.

harris.smith76

I was very much interested in law from my school days and I have that passion now also. Now I am trying to get an admission in Cestar College at Toronto and eagerly waiting for the day to come. There are people like me who still have the passion towards law. One of my friend also joined in the same law school.

mes08

Actually, this is what I read today: The LSAC is reporting that "As of 01/22/16, there are 174,013 2016 applications submitted by 27,183 applicants for the 2016–2017 academic year. Applicants are up 2.4% and applications are up 0.5% from 2015–2016. Last year at this time, we had 48% of the preliminary final applicant count." Based on this preliminary data, one would predict that there will be around 56,631 applicants for 2016-17.

Mike Spivey corroborates this information on his blog posts. It seems to me there's a slight increase in interest in law/law school this year.

runiggyrun

There's fresh data from Mike Spivey's Twitter feed on this application cycle:
"As of 1/29/16 applicants up .9%, applications up .1% At this stage last year, we had 52% of the applicant count. More granular data soon!"
The granular data has been posted at http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2015-16-cycle-data-as-of/
The bad news is that there seems to be a real spike on applications on the higher end of the LSAT scores. Everything above 160 is up

The 180 Bro_OVO

@runiggyrun

I saw that

I figure it's only going to go up from here.