Maybe I should be worried...

acsimon

Hope everyone’s admissions or study cycle is going well. I just wanted to get a bit of feedback on mine—which has been touch and go thus far. I’m just wondering if I have good reason to worry about the outcome of this cycle.

First thing that I’ll say is that I’ve applied to 14 schools and have heard back from five of them thus far: sitting at a 2-2-1 record. Two acceptances (UT, Northwestern), two waitlists (Duke (priority reserve), and Berkeley), and most recently one rejection (Harvard, 2 Weeks after JS1). Nothing from any other school.—I also should note that I applied very late in this cycle (this could be a non-negligible factor).

I also might throw in a little about my desired career path: clerking, to a stint in big Law (5-7 years), then either to PI or academia (with a strong preference for the latter). There are a lot of reasons for these particular goals but that would detract you for too long and besides, I’m always open-minded about evolving opportunities and so grant that these might well change.

In any case, with the Harvard rejection, I’ve gotten a little more concerned about my cycle. Ever more concerned, in fact, because sifting through the available data on URMs (I’m AA) and Harvard admissions data my rejection appears to be historic. Now this is not “historic” in some highfalutin sense—this is, after all one admissions decision in a sea of thousands and thousands—but just in the sense that given the data, I have the infamous role of being the most egregious underachiever as far as numbers are concerned (i.e., given the data, my numbers would have predicted a strong chance of admission to Harvard and a stronger chance of no rejection). As far as softs are concerned, I haven’t medaled in the olympics but have “disadvantage” softs (first gen, recovered from a major brain injury) plus other non-traditional softs (PhD). Given all of this, Harvard was probably my best shot at a T-3 acceptance (I basically blanketed the top 16 schools besides Cornell and Georgetown).

So, finally, my two questions are these: should I be worried about the complexion of the rest of my cycle given my goals? How likely is it that some facet of my application (or me!) doomed my chances—a facet that I’m not seeing (because I can’t access the neccesary vantage point to assess myself as others do)?

I made the decision (mistake?) of doing all of my applications without much help/feedback, and wonder if this fact (stupidity?) coupled with the Harvard rejection supports an affirmative answer to my second question. While I cannot do anything about it for this cycle, I favor truth over truthiness so I can mentally prepare myself for what is (soon) to come. In that sense, your thoughts would prove helpful.

Any and all feedback is appreciated and I thank y’all in advance!

FixedDice

@acsimon said:
I’m just wondering if I have good reason to worry about the outcome of this cycle.

I also should note that I applied very late in this cycle (this could be a non-negligible factor).

I also might throw in a little about my desired career path: clerking, to a stint in big Law (5-7 years), then either to PI or academia (with a strong preference for the latter).

In any case, with the Harvard rejection, I’ve gotten a little more concerned about my cycle. Ever more concerned, in fact, because sifting through the available data on URMs (I’m AA) and Harvard admissions data my rejection appears to be historic. I have the infamous role of being the most egregious underachiever as far as numbers are concerned. As far as softs are concerned, I haven’t medaled in the olympics but have “disadvantage” softs (first gen, recovered from a major brain injury) plus other non-traditional softs (PhD).

my two questions are these: should I be worried about the complexion of the rest of my cycle given my goals? How likely is it that some facet of my application (or me!) doomed my chances—a facet that I’m not seeing (because I can’t access the neccesary vantage point to assess myself as others do)?

I made the decision (mistake?) of doing all of my applications without much help/feedback, and wonder if this fact (stupidity?) coupled with the Harvard rejection supports an affirmative answer to my second question.

This is totally like a blind leading another blind and has no effect whatsoever on reality, but let me have a stab nonetheless...

1. T13s are all quite good for clerkship and biglaw (though there are some obvious differences among the thirteen). You secured Northwestern, so there's that. I do not know about academia, however. At one of the T13s I visited last year, a presenter claimed that legal academia is becoming more and more receptive to non-T3 scholars. I am rather skeptical about the claim: I had browsed through some law school faculty lists and looked at their resumes for potentially interesting reads, and as far as my memory at this ungodly hour is concerned, only about 99% of them graduated from T3 (there was one from NYU and another from UPenn). But then again, (1) I looked at relatively new and tenured professors; and (2) I'm not even a law student yet, while the presenter probably had analyzed employment status of legal academics on a daily basis. But I digress! Northwestern is a decent school, and I personally feel you should be happy about it. I feel like there's at least one good news coming your way.

2. You submitted your application quite late, that's one obvious thing. But I cannot say regarding the rest, since I do not have your application in front of me (not that I am asking you to send me your applications, of course). Unless you decided to doodle on your writing sample, however, you sound like a solid candidate.

FixedDice

Also, word of advice: Unless you plan to reapply, do not take a look at the applications you submitted for this cycle (especially the one for Harvard, since you mentioned it). You might find a really insignificant error that might make you think you were rejected just because of that one stupid mistake.

Paul Caint

Jeez, I did not expect you to be outright rejected by Harvard. I'm p sure your numbers are better than mine and I at least got a waitlist .

I mean you strike me as a really articulate and intelligent person so part of me doubts you made a glaring mistake somewhere along the line that could discount you...maybe their admissions is just a bit different this cycle cause of taking the GRE...idk. I'm actually at a loss for words.

studyingandrestudying

Plenty of well-qualified lawyers didn't go to HLS. It's disappointing to be rejected, I'm sure, but I don't think it's going to have much, if any impact on your other apps.

westcoastbestcoast

What are your numbers? Did you feel like your essays and supplementals were strong? This cycle was particularly competitive and I feel that schools took a much closer look at PS and other statements than they otherwise would've. If you haven't done so already, I would highly recommend 7sage admissions counseling. David was a great help to my essays and although I haven't gained admissions to T13, I was able to get into schools where I was below median, with some $

acsimon

@lsatplaylist said:
Plenty of well-qualified lawyers didn't go to HLS. It's disappointing to be rejected, I'm sure, but I don't think it's going to have much, if any impact on your other apps.

Of course, I’m not a “prestige ape.” At this point, prestige itself would only be functional for my career goals regarding academia. And this goes to the point of Northwestern (and Texas!) being great schools, so I’m definitely counting blessings there as @FixedDice suggested I should. It’s just that when I look at the data and look at my stats and softs, I worry that something else is going on and that that something else might corrupt the rest of my cycle. Of course, there is also the embarrassment given that I interviewed (which I thought was decent) and the comparison with the data on HLS (and especially their African-American community which is bigger and more well-known than other school which are similarly situated in other respects); at the same time, this is neither my first (nor my last) failure so I have to put that embarrassment part in perspective.

What I’m more worried about at this point is the probability that (a) there was some glaring error in my application that will plague others, and/or (b) I am suffering from the Dunning-Krueger ailment and laid an egg in the interview and am so incompetent, I don’t even know it. Any of these would tend to spell bad news for the rest of my decisions coming down the pipe.

Thank you for your kind words @"Paul Caint"; I was really glad to see your Chicago admission. Big ups on that. I can’t speak much on the school, but the city will always be home.

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts thus far. I am really grateful.

LSATcantwin

Brother, it's this cycle...it's brutal. Don't blame yourself, it is clear that you are 100% worthy of Harvard. The issue this cycle is so are 1,000 other people. I would blame your result on timing of the application more so than anything else. If it was a late application, and Harvard already had 400-500 promising applications, it pushes yours out. Not because of your numbers, your experience, anything like that, but just because they've almost already got their class "decided".

That being said, I am a bit confused on why no wait-list at least. I guess the same can be said for the wait-list. It was already mostly "decided" before you even applied?

I feel your pain though. As a splitter this cycle has been brutal. Hang in there, I'm sure good news is right around the corner for you.

goingfor99th

Adcomms can tell when applicants don't extensively revise their essays and applications. I would guess that your decision to not seek feedback on your application prior to submission hurt you. This part of the application process is critical to success, imo, and is often overlooked or neglected by applicants.

I spent 3-4 months on review and revision of my essays and application. I consulted my two most trusted advisors every day and 8-10 people total throughout the revision process. I think that was the difference for my cycle, above and beyond my softs.

Gladiator_2017

Sorry to hear about the Harvard decision. I'm all anxious about this cycle and I didn't even apply so I can only imagine the emotional ride everyone who hasn't received acceptances from their top choices is experiencing.

There's the possibilty that there was nothing in your application that kept you from getting in. This cycle has been so unexpected and it's always so unpredictable for URMs. In the past I've seen NYU reject an applicant who is then accepted to Stanford.

Sending positive vibes you way.

Seeking Perfection

I think your cycle sounds like it might be going bad enough to be worth reapplying.

I don't say this because you won't still have a good cycle by normal standards, but because you want clerking and academia. That should make Yale your number 1 school, followed by Stanford , Harvard, and possibly if you are a law and econ person Chicago. NYU with a Furman might factor in too.

Of HYS, Harvard was your best chance. Their class size and acceptance rate are a lot higher. Of course, you could still get into Yale or Stanford which would salvage your cycle.

For most people, not getting in to one of the Top 3 schools won't ruin their cycle. For instance, I too got unexpectedly waitlisted at Harvard(I thought an 80 some percent chance on law school numbers would get me an interview). However, I am still happy with my cycle and am leaning toward attending MIchigan since I got a nice scholarship there. I would have considered taking a scholarship at Michigan over Harvard anyway. But the reason I am okay with Michigan is because I'm only slightly interested in academia if I happen to place near the tip top of my class and/or decide later that I want an LLM or a PhD. I'm also interested in clerking if it's an option that I have(there doesn't seem to be much drawback). But, I am not committed to either. If I were the success of my cycle would be based nearly entirely on the Top 3 schools.

acsimon

@LSATcantwin said:
Brother, it's this cycle...it's brutal. Don't blame yourself, it is clear that you are 100% worthy of Harvard. The issue this cycle is so are 1,000 other people. I would blame your result on timing of the application more so than anything else. If it was a late application, and Harvard already had 400-500 promising applications, it pushes yours out. Not because of your numbers, your experience, anything like that, but just because they've almost already got their class "decided".

That being said, I am a bit confused on why no wait-list at least. I guess the same can be said for the wait-list. It was already mostly "decided" before you even applied?

I feel your pain though. As a splitter this cycle has been brutal. Hang in there, I'm sure good news is right around the corner for you.

Perhaps, but there was plenty of ppl who were accepted or waitlisted on the day I was dinged—so who knows?

@goingfor99th You might well be right, of course. While I don’t think it could have been a cadre of grammatical errors which did me in, there might have been substantive choices regarding the essays which could have benefitted from another set of eyes (or eight!). The problem is that I just didn’t have enough money to spend on admission counseling since I barely have enough to live in the bay as it is (and that’s saying something because to say I live modestly is a bit of an understatement, I’m told). I also have one part one of my essays that I felt was too personal to be comfortable shopping around to ppl. Also, my closest friends (that I would feel comfortable with) didn’t attend college and so I thought against bothering them with any of it.

@westcoastbestcoast 175/~3.7. I thought my essays were strong, but, of course, (as I said above) I acknowledge that they might well have not been. ?

Sammie215

Hey for what it's worth I got a 177 on the LSAT and a 3.6 from a top liberal arts school and I was just rejected from Harvard as well. I thought my PS and softs were solid. I think their taking the GRE for the first time and also having a record number of applicants is really coming back to bite a lot of us. It's super, super frustrating but you are by no means alone

goingfor99th

@acsimon said:

@LSATcantwin said:
Brother, it's this cycle...it's brutal. Don't blame yourself, it is clear that you are 100% worthy of Harvard. The issue this cycle is so are 1,000 other people. I would blame your result on timing of the application more so than anything else. If it was a late application, and Harvard already had 400-500 promising applications, it pushes yours out. Not because of your numbers, your experience, anything like that, but just because they've almost already got their class "decided".

That being said, I am a bit confused on why no wait-list at least. I guess the same can be said for the wait-list. It was already mostly "decided" before you even applied?

I feel your pain though. As a splitter this cycle has been brutal. Hang in there, I'm sure good news is right around the corner for you.

@goingfor99th You might well be right, of course. While I don’t think it could have been a cadre of grammatical errors which did me in, there might have been substantive choices regarding the essays which could have benefitted from another set of eyes (or eight!). The problem is that I just didn’t have enough money to spend on admission counseling since I barely have enough to live in the bay as it is (and that’s saying something because to say I live modestly is a bit of an understatement, I’m told). I also have one part one of my essays that I felt was too personal to be comfortable shopping around to ppl. Also, my closest friends (that I would feel comfortable with) didn’t attend college and so I thought against bothering them with any of it.

That's understandable. I was lucky to have many well-educated people assist my efforts.

studyingandrestudying

And yes, like @LSATcantwin said, good news is around the corner. This situation is going to get better.

LSATcantwin

@acsimon Yeah I get it man. If I've learned anything from this cycle, it's that things don't make sense. People with same stats are getting vastly different results from the same schools. People who are expected to be in are getting kicked out. It feels like adcoms just have a pile of applications and reach into it and grab X amount of admits, then Y amount of wait-lists. Once they are done they reject the rest lol

Seriously though, hang in there. I'm sure good news can't be far for us - and if not - we can hang around on 7Sage another year helping out while we polish our applications and get accepted to our dream schools next cycle right? lol

mcglz_64

But what if that is the case ^ @LSATcantwin

brigitte

How did you think your interview went? Could you have come off as arrogant or "weird"?

Leah M B

Yeah, echoing what @LSATcantwin said. This cycle has just been wacky. People have been getting WL'd and dinged left and right that would have been solid admits in the last couple years. I would guess as much as anything, applying late didn't help. How late did you apply? I turned in apps at the very end of January (and a couple mid-Feb) and got at least 1 waitlist that I think should have been an admit but I just applied too late. Being a really competitive cycle has not helped that either.

westcoastbestcoast

@acsimon said:

@LSATcantwin said:
Brother, it's this cycle...it's brutal. Don't blame yourself, it is clear that you are 100% worthy of Harvard. The issue this cycle is so are 1,000 other people. I would blame your result on timing of the application more so than anything else. If it was a late application, and Harvard already had 400-500 promising applications, it pushes yours out. Not because of your numbers, your experience, anything like that, but just because they've almost already got their class "decided".

That being said, I am a bit confused on why no wait-list at least. I guess the same can be said for the wait-list. It was already mostly "decided" before you even applied?

I feel your pain though. As a splitter this cycle has been brutal. Hang in there, I'm sure good news is right around the corner for you.

Perhaps, but there was plenty of ppl who were accepted or waitlisted on the day I was dinged—so who knows?

@goingfor99th You might well be right, of course. While I don’t think it could have been a cadre of grammatical errors which did me in, there might have been substantive choices regarding the essays which could have benefitted from another set of eyes (or eight!). The problem is that I just didn’t have enough money to spend on admission counseling since I barely have enough to live in the bay as it is (and that’s saying something because to say I live modestly is a bit of an understatement, I’m told). I also have one part one of my essays that I felt was too personal to be comfortable shopping around to ppl. Also, my closest friends (that I would feel comfortable with) didn’t attend college and so I thought against bothering them with any of it.

@westcoastbestcoast 175/~3.7. I thought my essays were strong, but, of course, (as I said above) I acknowledge that they might well have not been. ?

Did you have a why law component to your statements? It doesn't sound too difficult but it does seem to give a positive boost to admissions chances. Spivey mentioned how law schools are looking for a why law component nowadays.

calcal101

How late is late? Do you mean you submitted in early January, or do you mean that you submitted the day before the deadlines?

Is there a possibility that one of your LORs is not fabulous? IIRC, you're a grad student…as the above poster noted, did you include a Why Law that makes your pivot toward a more professional profession (you know what I mean) seem sensible, well thought out, and not just a result of a bad academic job market?

That sad, weird things happen. A T6 school that I professed my love to has absolutely ghosted me. Another accepted me in under a month and I had a borderline error in my personal statement (repeated a prepositional phrase at the beginning of a sentence within the span of just a paragraph). This cycle is weird and so much of this, especially at top schools, is highly subjective. I wouldn't give up, but if your goal is legal academia, it probably does make sense to hold out for T6 (preferably T3)--and that should totally be possible with your numbers, which are truly excellent

AllezAllez21

I'm sorry to hear this. Studying with you I know you're a great person. You've also got incredible stats/softs.

That makes me think it's one of three things:
1. You applied too late in an already crazy cycle.
2. Your writing components were off in some way.
3. One of your LORs secretly backstabbed you.

You're gonna have to figure out 2 & 3 through your own best judgment I guess. I think you've got to put your writing in front of others, and if at all possible in front of a professional who can tell you if it's good writing and if it is appropriate for law school admissions.

It's not the end of the world if you wait a cycle.

I really hope it works out for the best, and I know that ultimately it will because you're a good person.

acsimon

A big thank you to all who’ve thrown in their two cents thus far—I’m sorry I couldn’t get back and say so earlier because I’ve been traveling.> @Gladiator_2017 said:

Sorry to hear about the Harvard decision. I'm all anxious about this cycle and I didn't even apply so I can only imagine the emotional ride everyone who hasn't received acceptances from their top choices is experiencing.

There's the possibilty that there was nothing in your application that kept you from getting in. This cycle has been so unexpected and it's always so unpredictable for URMs. In the past I've seen NYU reject an applicant who is then accepted to Stanford.

Sending positive vibes you way.

Thanks for this! It definitely is a possibility, and if so, I can’t do much about it. Thank u for the vibes! I’m sending them right back to u for the upcoming cycle (or are you already doin’ it big in law school?

@anonclsstudent I really think I can rule the first suggestion out (otherwise, I have a whole load of other problems to deal with before this Law thing). The second suggestion is one that could have possibly happened. But my whole goal of the interview was to just be conversational and not try to be/do “too much.” That doesn’t rule out being “weird” in one way or another though...(unfortunately for me)

@Sammie215 Those are obviously great numbers and the outright rejection can be really disorienting, right? I’m very much not a “misery loves company” type of person and so am sorry to hear it. (Though, of course, I’m grateful for the solidarity)

@"Seeking Perfection" I’m sorry to hear about your waitlist as well. I know you basically destroyed the test (twice) and even with splitter stats, it’s hard to throw shade on a 180 at the end of the day.

I was thinking along your lines as well (in regards to preference ordering and probability distribution) though a little more broadly since I figured my Ph.D would help me out for the sorts of issues in law that interest me (at least right now).

I have kept up with this forum enough to be aware of your Michigan acceptance, and congratulate you on it (especially since you have a connection to Michigan already, no). Actually I’ve been hearing so many good things about a lot of schools (e.g.,Michigan, UVA, Duke) that I wouldn’t have associated with law before thinking about LS myself.

@"Leah M B" said:
Yeah, echoing what @LSATcantwin said. This cycle has just been wacky. People have been getting WL'd and dinged left and right that would have been solid admits in the last couple years. I would guess as much as anything, applying late didn't help. How late did you apply? I turned in apps at the very end of January (and a couple mid-Feb) and got at least 1 waitlist that I think should have been an admit but I just applied too late. Being a really competitive cycle has not helped that either.

Like, deadline late for the majority of schools. Part of the problem was waiting on rec letters—had to wait long enough on one that I had to solicit two others. The letter in question came in the day that my emergency letter writer ended up getting hers in. Such is life.

Saw that you got in some good places too on various threads on here. You think you’re headed to UCLA if no one else comes through or are you thinking about one of your other acceptances?

@lsatplaylist Thanks! Really trying to hold my head over here and muster hope.

@LSATcantwin much love.—I’ve seen that you’ve been stressed about the sporadic nature of your cycle (ah, to be a splitter!) and especially after some amazing achievements on the test and in life! (You’re vet, no?) I pray you a great admissions April!!!

@westcoastbestcoast I did not directly have one, although I touch on it at various points. I guess I picked up the notion that many schools do not really like you to spend too much time on this, and so tried to concentrate on the story instead a point by point defense of my decision to apply to law (obviously, a caricature, but u get me). I wish I would’ve done it over again; I would’ve put that front and center from what your saying. That’s a good point!

@calcal101 and you make another good suggestion.—might one of my rec letters not been stellar? I couldn’t imagine that they could be bad, but might there be a conversational implicature hanging somewhere in the background. I am not sure that my two main committee members are exactly thrilled about me going into law, but I don’t think that they’d say as much. They could have implied it in other ways, however.

But, like you say, shit happens, and speculation on it only goes so far (but these are worthwhile things to think about in the coming days that you’ve all raised. My sympathy about the ghosting—shit happens but you would hope it happens for a reason. At least, I do.

@AllezAllez21 said:
I'm sorry to hear this. Studying with you I know you're a great person. You've also got incredible stats/softs.

That makes me think it's one of three things:
1. You applied too late in an already crazy cycle.
2. Your writing components were off in some way.
3. One of your LORs secretly backstabbed you.

You're gonna have to figure out 2 & 3 through your own best judgment I guess. I think you've got to put your writing in front of others, and if at all possible in front of a professional who can tell you if it's good writing and if it is appropriate for law school admissions.

It's not the end of the world if you wait a cycle.

I really hope it works out for the best, and I know that ultimately it will because you're a good person.

@AllezAllez21 Thanks for the kind words. It brightens my evening, it really does. Even though I thought study time was thankless, I sometimes wish I was Skyping in on sundays, reviewing some 60s PT. Those were simpler times.

Your summary of the logical space is right on, I think (could’ve also bombed that interview so bad I “ain’t even know it”). The problem is that I think some ppl around me would seriously question what I’m doing with my life if I wait this cycle out (I’m a bit older than many applicants on here). I also would figure out how to finance another year of existence though teaching. Not impossible obstacles, I know; still obstacles, though.

I hope it works out for the best for you as well, but, if I’m not mistaken, it already has so far (no?).

Leah M B

@acsimon Yeah if you were applying right at the deadlines (which is what most of mine were too) I would say that’s what your biggest problem was. From looking at LSN, Berkeley rejects or WLs almost everyone that applies past the very very beginning of January. If the app isn’t in by like Jan 10 at the latest, almost everyone was WL or ding. Which is what I presume my answer will be. I feel honored that they haven’t rejected me yet lol. At least I wasn’t a fast and easy deny! Haha. I would love to say yes to UCLA but I’m having a constant low grade panic attack from thinking about how big the loans would still be so... I don’t know. Extremely undecided. WUSTL would be my best financial choice but I’m not sold on them yet, mostly just because of location. I’m visiting both in a couple weeks, so hopefully will decide soon.

Good luck and don’t count out the other schools yet that you haven’t heard from!

tylerdschreur10

I feel you. I got dinged by Harvard tuesday with a 176 and 3.6 in a brutal STEM program, not shocked, but certainly disappointed.

I'll echo what some have said, this cycle is competitive at a unprecedented level. There's a link in a nother thread to some mind-boggling data from SPivey consulting. To summarize, applicants and applications per applicant are up significantly, and high LSAT scores are WAAAAY up as well. All signs point to this being the toughest cycle for top applicants in a while.

So curse your luck that you didn't apply last year bro, I know I am wry smile

Paul Caint

@acsimon Hey, I'm bumping this post again.

I'm really confused as to how you got outright denied from Harvard given your URM status and numbers. Did you think the interview went poorly? What are your thoughts on why this happened?

acsimon

@"Paul Caint" sorry, didn’t see this before. I haven’t really been on lately.

To answer your question: I honestly don’t know. I don’t think the interview went terribly, but I can’t see it “from the outside”. I definitely could interview better because I did so (with Columbia), but that doesn’t mean that the HLS interview was terrible. One thing I did this cycle was apply at most of the deadlines: I didn’t anticipate this cycle would be much different than past cycles and so, while I understood that there is an ideal time to apply (i.e., before thanksgiving week) I didn’t expect the disadvantage to prove decisive. But that, coupled with whatever else (that is not to marginalize other factors so much as to indicate that it’s just a “black box” to me), did prove decisive.

I really don’t have any substantive thoughts on what happened other than this, but that’s probably bc I’m just getting around to picking myself up from an “overall” bad cycle. I wasn’t universally rejected, and, given the places I applied to (great schools!) I can’t be too “whoa is me” but I admit I’m disappointed.

mimimimi

Lateness really hurts. My personal hunch is that one doesn't have a chance unless their numbers are in the 90% of the school stats. If you are not in a hurry to go to law school, just apply again. Or you can transfer -- don't do it unless you don't mind graduating from the first school if you don't get to transfer to your preferred school. That being said, Northwestern is not bad at all, congratulations!