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WUSTL vs Vanderbilt; need help
Maximus4
Alum Member
Hey everyone so I got into both schools WUSTL offered be about 130K and Vanderbilt offered about 70K. Which school is better for big law? I need help since I cant figure out where I want to go.
Comments
I live in Nashville, and one benefit of being around here is that there are no other highly competitive law schools in Tennessee. I can't speak to the area around St. Louis... but the schools are basically the same rank. Assuming you don't have any personal attachments/hatred associated with the two cities, I would go with WUSTL because of the scholarship. I know that didn't really answer your question, but that's all I know haha.
Whichever school gives you more money.
Do you have an idea of the location you would like to practice?
Yes I want to practice in Los Angeles after graduation.
Given that the current employment information for both schools doesn't have California listed as a top location for graduates and the schools are close in ranking, I would go with WUSTL for the $$.
Vanderbilt is probably the better school. I would go to Vandy, personally.
Not sure if it’s too late but big law at either of those schools is worse than a coin flip. If you’re set on LA and you want big law you might do better with UCLA, USC, Loyola, or another California school.
Vanderbilt is the better school for Big Law.
But it isn't $60,000 better. At either school there is a pretty high chance you miss Big Law despite your best efforts. In case that happens, you want to minimize your debt.
Adding a vote for Vanderbilt.
But Vanderbilt has the best % of graduates in the past 3 years going to Big Law post graduation outside of the T14 schools.
Vandy. Most mobile school from what I've seen. I feel like WUSTL isn't as mobile outside the Mid-West area. This becomes an issue if you are trying to go to CA. If you're getting serious money from theses 2 schools, you are definitely in the ball game for USC and UCLA. You may want to consider those two schools if you don't mind sitting out a cycle.
That being said, if money is a big issue than WUSTL may be the way to go. Just need to align up your plans and what you are willing to do.
Good Luck!!!
So I was rejected from USC not sure why entirely but it is what it is. Im WL at UCLA and Northwestern currently so I'm waiting to see what they say. Also can you explain what you mean by "mobile school", haven't heard that before so I'm a bit confused. thanks!
@Maximus4 Hmmm... I agree that is odd with USC. What I mean by mobile is that you can move around the country a bit more and people will recognize the name better. I slightly mis-phrased; I should have said the most mobile of the schools you mentioned. I made it sound like they are better than Harvard lol.
Simply put: the more prestigious, the more mobile the school is. Anyone will take a Harvard grad. But will a firm Big Law firm in CA take a grad from WUSTL? Do you have roots/connections in CA? That may come into play when job search time comes.
WUSTL from what I have seen and heard (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) places its graduates mainly in the heart of the mid-west (KC, STL areas ,etc). Vandy has a bit better placement around the country, not T-14 level per say, but it seems to do better. For example, I live in Texas but Vandy is a possibility for me since they place an okay amount of grads in TX for an out of state school. Both schools lean a bit more regional than a national name.
Congrats on Northwestern! That is a big powerhouse in the Midwest and has the best mobility of the schools you have mentioned. I'm not familiar with how they place in CA but I'm willing to bet its better than WUSTL. Big law in general, Northwestern would put you in a great position especially in Chicago.
I'm not in a position to bring up employment data (out and about haha) but if you go on to the law school's web site, they show employment data on their graduates (2017 was recently posted) and it will show the top 3 states that graduates go to. They will also give you a general output of what kind of firms (size wise) graduates are working at after graduation.
https://www.nalpdirectory.com/
Here is another handy tool as well. You can search large firms and you can see where they are recruiting and most times a web site where you can further search their lawyer roster and see where most of the newest associates are coming from. This helps with seeing which lower ranked schools, who are mainly regional, are placing into big law firms in those markets.
Sorry for the info dump but I hope that clears my statement up a bit!
You're a legend, thank you ! great info
WUSTL places the most students in Missouri, followed by New York, and Illinois. It's my impression though that neither Vanderbilt or WUSTL are going to get you a job in California. Either you have enough ties that with good grades you can network and mass mail your way into the California market or you have to take what the schools can help you with. WUSTL will have firms from St. Louis and Chicago at their OCI. Vanderbilt will have more southern firms. Neither will likely have anyone from California.
But the fact is that at either school Big Law anywhere is a long shot. If you get Big Law anywhere, you are going to take it make money for three or so years and then look to lateral somewhere else. That somewhere will be California for you. I wouldn't worry about whether or not you can get to California initially. I would worry about whether you can get Big Law and what you are going to do if you don't get good enough grades for Big Law. Without the big law salary that extra $60,000 in debt will be huge especially since it will grow while you are busy paying back the other debt. Also take a look at both schools LRAPs.
Glad I could help! @"Seeking Perfection" is on the money here. Great analysis of what to consider.
Agreed on what the last few folks are saying about WUSTL's portability. However, I would note that while the place they have the largest percentage of students getting jobs is Missouri, that number is only around 25% of the class. That's followed by New York (I think 10-12% ish), and then it's pretty dispersed among a lot of states after that. WUSTL seems to have a pretty geographically diverse alumni network since most students go there for the financial aspect but don't plan on staying in Missouri. CA is tough because they have a lot of in-state law schools to source from though. The message that we got from alumni, current students, and career services at ASW is that it's doable to land a job in your preferred market, but you need to find summer positions there for both summers and start laying the ground work. And of course it'd be even more helpful if you already have ties and a network established there.
I don’t know your life and so what i’m about to say may be of limited use to you. I just looked at Vandy’s employment numbers for 2016 here.
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/vanderbilt/sals/
The short of it, in 2016 approximately 37.5 percent of Vanderbilt grads made more than 120K and at least a quarter made 160K or more. I’m not sure what mid-market firms were paying in 2016 but i know I was less than New York which was at 160. So maybe a quarter of the class goes to market paying firms. I would bet you more than anything half of those firms are split between Atlanta, and Texas and the other half are in New York, with an outlier here or there. I say this becuase of Vandy’s Geography and the size of the NY legal market.
So that’s the rub. Randomized, A quarter chance making the grades to interview for big law and hoping someone in California likes you enough to hire you. But getting a job in California is gonna be tough besides the grades (a limited pie, which everyone will compete with you for) you have approximately 14 schools big law firms (ie market paying) hire their summer classes from first, and Vanderbilt’s OCS probably has minimal contacts with California recruiters and hiring partners. Think about it. Kirkland (or insert Big Firm here) isn’t going to fly to Vanderbilt to find 8 summer hires for it’s 80 person LA office when it can go to any one of HYSCCN, Berkeley, UCLA, or USC or even a local school like Loyola. I would think the same logic applies to WUSTL. For what’s it worth, I was at a workshop with Kirkland’s hiring partner in LA and he said he looked for “smart enough kids” (whatever that means) with a “personality” who are hard workers. When asked how he measured these things he said, grades/school attended, recommendations from partners he knew and worked with in Kirkland’’s LA office and where they went to school (this hiring partner went to Yale and grew up in Chicagoland), and lastly by trying to fill up summer classes with students at schools Kirkland had relationships with in other cities.
Anecdotally, I’m at Columbia and we get a ton of California people here every year thinking it’s a “portable” degree, and every year people in the bottom 3/4 of of the class only bid California and they get 12 interviews 4 callbacks and 0 offers. Then OCS does its thing, consoles them and helps them mass mail. California is tough becuase it’s not a big market for Big Law (compared to NY), and for what Big Law there is it tends to skew towards IP (not sure if you have a science background.
To add fuel to the embers, when you graduate in 2021 (or whenever) who knows what the economy will look like. ( I bet you few who went to law school in 2006 thought about what would happen if the economy tanked). If I were you, I would think long and hard about sending an application to other California schools. I’m sure with numbers good enough to get the scholarship packages you received, you’ll get in, and most likely in at some places with a full ride. My guess is since it’s late in the cycle and deans are desperate for numbers you can get an unconditional full ride at some California schools.
I would also think long and hard if you go to WUSTL or Vanderbilt how you would feel working for a firm like Polsinelli or Burr Foreman, respectively. For many who go to those schools that’s nearly the best outcome one can expect (which is great when you really think about it becuase making 125K in Birmingham is like making 275K in NYC when you consider real purchasing power).
Just some things to think about before you end up spending the equivalent of a mortgage and possibly find yourself with a degree that’s not helping you get where you want to be in life.
None of those schools are going to get you in big law. Especially not Loyola and USC. UCLA you might have a chance if you're in the top of the class.
To comment on OP - I dont think Vandy nor WUSTL place in California big law.