International students fare worse wrt admission outcomes?

MindyKale

https://7sage.com/admissions/lesson/affects-chances-getting-law-school/

I am talking with reference to this post by @"David.Busis" .

What are some reasons this could happen? I will be applying as an international applicant and I am worried about this.

To begin with, the LSAT itself is a tough nut to crack and now I get the feeling that even if I do do well, I will still be stuck with mediocre outcomes.

While some parts of it could be unavoidable (like I cannot change my GPA), I was wondering what I could do to put myself in the best position possible for the admissions committee.

Sam Tyler

I dont think international students are fairing worse due to discrimination during the admissions process, in fact, being an international student is likely to help your admissions. Many top schools have a commitment to diversity on campus and will accept minority applicants with lower lsat scores and gpas to make sure campus isnt just a sea of white people.

The reason international students do worse in admissions is likely because there admissions package is, on average, worse than other applicants. Specifically, it's worse enough that the above stated advantage doesnt fill the entire gap.

The reason for this is probably a bunch of direct and indirect factors. international students have, on average, a poorer grasp of english. Theres also evidence that, although billigual students who grew up speaking two languages know more words overall than people who only speak 1 language, their knowledge of words in any single language is lower than a student who grew up speaking only one language. Finally, discrimination and lower average family incomes can both negatively impact GPA and access to resources to study for the lsat, like expensive courses. For all these reasons, international students put together, on average, a less quantitatively competitive application with lower GPA and LSAT.

As an individual who is an international student who has as strong a grasp of english as any native speaker, you should consider this an advantage. You will likely get more acceptances than if you were born here, due to the holistic admissions process of all schools. Schools definately wont put your application into the no pile just because your not born in the country your applying. If anything, it will help you get a yes

David Busis

Being international is correlated with worse outcomes (compared to domestic applicants with identical numbers). As you know from the LSAT, though this doesn't mean that being international CAUSES you to do worse.

It could be that international students tend to submit worse essays, which makes sense if they tend to speak English as a foreign language. If that's the case, and if you're a native or fluent English-speaker, then all you have to worry about is writing good essays. (Other than improving your LSAT score, that's all you can do anyway.)

vitamincoverdose

But at the same time, it is possible that international students use editing and other admissions-related services for the same reasons mentioned by David. Also, international students usually have more money to spare, considering that they can't take out loans to go to the US law schools.

MindyKale

@HaloHalo I don't think so about the money. I come from a country with one of the worst exchange rates and it is only steadily climbing.

MissChanandler

Also, some countries have GPA systems that don't transfer easily into the LSAC model so it might be harder for a school to boost their GPA stats with international students.

akistotle

@MissChanandler said:
Also, some countries have GPA systems that don't transfer easily into the LSAC model so it might be harder for a school to boost their GPA stats with international students.

Even if it's easily transferrable, GPAs from universities outside North America cannot be reported to ABA so they don't affect their US News and World Report ranking. For candidates whose undergraduate institutions are outside of the U.S., their GPAs are "soft" factors and their LSAT scores matter much more.

"International applicants" include U.S.-educated applicants (with reportable GPAs from U.S. colleges) who are applying from countries outside the U.S. and require student visas to study at law schools.

Bamboosprout

Isn't it also a consideration for school that they want their graduate statistics to be as strong as possible, and international students have less incentive to pass or even take the Bar, since there are attractive opportunities outside of the states for such students coming out of a top law school. In such cases both the Bar and employment statistics may be negatively impacted.

akistotle

@Bamboosprout said:
Isn't it also a consideration for school that they want their graduate statistics to be as strong as possible, and international students have less incentive to pass or even take the Bar, since there are attractive opportunities outside of the states for such students coming out of a top law school. In such cases both the Bar and employment statistics may be negatively impacted.

I don't think international students would apply to J.D. programs if they weren't considering taking the bar in the U.S. or working in the U.S. If anything, I think they have more incentive to pass the bar. (Even if you have a J.D. degree from a top school, I don't think there would be attractive opportunities outside the U.S. if you are not officially a lawyer.)

International lawyers who would like to practice outside of the U.S. would usually go into LL.M programs, which don't require LSAT scores. I think foreign lawyers usually get LL.M degrees so that they can qualify to sit for the bar exam in the U.S.

Anyways, going back to @MindyKale's original question:

While some parts of it could be unavoidable (like I cannot change my GPA), I was wondering what I could do to put myself in the best position possible for the admissions committee.

I assume you have a reportable GPA from an institution in the U.S./Canada. I think all you can do is to kill the LSAT and write good essays just like any other applicant! I don't think there's anything special international applicants can do.

MindyKale

@akistotle My undergrad institution is not in US/Canada. However, I have a graduate degree although it doesn't count for the purposes of GPA I am hoping it could give them some idea how I can fare in a US system?

From your advice, I get that the best I can do is to push my LSAT scores as high as possible and write outstanding essays.

Speaking of, does my situation warrant that I write a Diversity Statement? I immigrated to the US when I was 21 years old. I come from a very small town. I don't understand however, if my diversity construes as the diversity that law school is looking for.

akistotle

@MindyKale said:
@akistotle My undergrad institution is not in US/Canada. However, I have a graduate degree although it doesn't count for the purposes of GPA I am hoping it could give them some idea how I can fare in a US system?

From your advice, I get that the best I can do is to push my LSAT scores as high as possible and write outstanding essays.

Speaking of, does my situation warrant that I write a Diversity Statement? I immigrated to the US when I was 21 years old. I come from a very small town. I don't understand however, if my diversity construes as the diversity that law school is looking for.

I think you are in a unique situation because you might not technically count as an international applicant since you have immigrated to the U.S. (I assume you don't need a visa to stay in the U.S.)

But since your undergrad institution isn't in the U.S./Canada, you will be an applicant without reportable GPA. I think your GPA in a U.S.-graduate program can signal your ability to cope with academic rigor, but since it doesn't contributes to the ranking, your LSAT score will be the only "hard" factor.

This means your chances of getting into law school are almost totally dependent on your LSAT score. Even if you have a 4.0 GPA at an international instutiton ("Superior" rating), if you score below a school's LSAT median, that school will be a reach.

I think that the fact you have immigrated to the U.S. counts as a diversity factor:
What Counts as a Valid Diversity Factor?
https://7sage.com/admissions/lesson/what-counts-as-a-valid-diversity-factor/

Good luck!

Rigid Designator

@akistotle said:

@MindyKale said:
@akistotle My undergrad institution is not in US/Canada. However, I have a graduate degree although it doesn't count for the purposes of GPA I am hoping it could give them some idea how I can fare in a US system?

From your advice, I get that the best I can do is to push my LSAT scores as high as possible and write outstanding essays.

Speaking of, does my situation warrant that I write a Diversity Statement? I immigrated to the US when I was 21 years old. I come from a very small town. I don't understand however, if my diversity construes as the diversity that law school is looking for.

I think you are in a unique situation because you might not technically count as an international applicant since you have immigrated to the U.S. (I assume you don't need a visa to stay in the U.S.)

@akistotle makes a good point. Double check if you will be applying as an international student. It's somewhat unintuitive. For instance I have never lived in the US, but because I'm a naturalised citizen I don't count as an international applicant.

akistotle

@"Rigid Designator" said:

@akistotle said:

@MindyKale said:
@akistotle My undergrad institution is not in US/Canada. However, I have a graduate degree although it doesn't count for the purposes of GPA I am hoping it could give them some idea how I can fare in a US system?

From your advice, I get that the best I can do is to push my LSAT scores as high as possible and write outstanding essays.

Speaking of, does my situation warrant that I write a Diversity Statement? I immigrated to the US when I was 21 years old. I come from a very small town. I don't understand however, if my diversity construes as the diversity that law school is looking for.

I think you are in a unique situation because you might not technically count as an international applicant since you have immigrated to the U.S. (I assume you don't need a visa to stay in the U.S.)

@akistotle makes a good point. Double check if you will be applying as an international student. It's somewhat unintuitive. For instance I have never lived in the US, but because I'm a naturalised citizen I don't count as an international applicant.

Yea, I think the definition of "international applicant" is vague.

7Sage Admissions used data from Law School Numbers and concluded, "International students fare slightly worse in law school admissions than domestic students." But on LSN, we don't really know what kind of people check the "international" box.

I think it's either someone 1) has a foreign undergraduate degree (uGPA is not reportable); or
2) is not a US citizen or a permanent resident.

You have to put a number in the uGPA box of the LSN profile, so I guess people put their uGPA at foreign institutions.

And when we compare for example 4.0/165 (U.S.) vs. 4.0/165 (International institution), of course, the latter would do worse because that 4.0 from an international institution cannot offset the LSAT score. (But a 4.0 from schools in the U.S. might get you in at some T-14 schools.) So I think that's why the analyzed data shows international students fare worse. But we can never know from the available data.