How much does the law school you attend really matter?

fLAWless

Hi everyone,
I'm in a bit of a dilemma and I'm wondering if with your experience, you'd have any advice for me. I began studying for the LSAT in June of this past summer, summer 2018. I enrolled in a Blueprint course that started at the end of June and ended right before the September 2018 LSAT. The class was 4 hours long and took place 3 days a week. At the time, I did not know much about the LSAT. I thought that going to these classes would be enough for me without doing much practice at home. I took the September 2018 LSAT because I signed up for it, not knowing I could withdraw up until the day before if I wanted to, and did not score well at all which was expected. Now, after doing A LOT of research, and learning that law schools look at all scores and taking the test many times looks bad, I want to make sure that the next time I take the test I will get the score I need. I am preparing for the January 2019 LSAT and my goal is to get a score of 160. I have been studying almost every day and in a completely different way than before. I am currently a senior in undergraduate school, and if I don't get accepted into a school for Fall 2019 I will have to take a year off, which I really do not want to do. The school I am aiming for is ranked in the 30's, but if I am not able to get a 160 on the LSAT and get in the mid 150s instead, is it still worth applying and going to a lower ranked school (probably ranked in like the 60's)? That is my main question. If it is not worth it, and I am not scoring in the 160s by early January I will withdraw from the test and take the year off to study and get a better score. If it is worth it, I will still take the test, do the best I can, and go to the best lower-ranked school I can go to (and possibly transfer after 1L if it is possible). Please let me know what is best from your experience. And if anyone is going through the same dilemma I hope that this helps!!

Thank you guys,
fLAWless

Louislepauvre

The highest ranked school I am applying to is Fordham which is in the 30’s. I’m only applying to schools in NYC, because my life is here and I can’t leave. The other schools I am applying to: Cardozo, Brooklyn Law School, New York Law School, St John’s are ranked anywhere from 50 to 120. If you’re a top performer at a regional law school, you can get a job in Big Law. But you have to be a top performer, as opposed to NYU/Columbia where it’s more heavily recruited. So, it all depends on the market, what you want to do, the school, etc. If you want a federal clerkship, you can’t go to a school in an 80s rank (generally, I’m sure there are exceptions).

drbrown2

Don't be so resistant to taking a year off. First, it will help you be more prepared for law school which could translate into a better job. Second, it could be an opportunity for you to continue studying and raise your score. Third, the combination of applying early next cycle with some work experience and a higher LSAT score could give you access to higher ranking schools. Outside of the top programs, the ranking is less important than the access to jobs and bar passage rate. I don't think that just because a school ranked in the 30s accepts you that you should discard offers from other top 50 schools that potentially are in a better legal market or have a better alumni base. Job prospects are especially important if you plan on taking out loans to pay for your education. The average salary of first year associates is skewed by all the big law jobs offering $180k. In smaller markets and in smaller law firms, the number is much lower. I'm sure you've heard this all before, but I truly believe students should be as strategic as possible in this applications process and avoid taking on huge debt unless they are going to a top school.

You also mentioned going to a lower ranked school and transferring. I would never go to a school with the intent of transferring, but if you find yourself with an opportunity to transfer to a top school and think you will substantially improve your chances of getting good summer jobs then I think that is a good path. I've heard of top students receiving a full ride scholarship at the lowest tiered for-profit schools turning down transfer opportunities to T14 schools, and being completely unable to find a good job after graduation. They were literally top of their class and still couldn't find employment. At least they didn't pay, but I assume they wish they had taken the transfer opportunity so they would have more access to good paying firms.

Anyways, sorry for the wall of text. Just do some research and talk to some current students if you can, formulate an informed strategy, and stick to it.

turnercm

What's your GPA? Make sure that it is as high as possible and ensure studying for LSAT doesn't hinder that. GPAs are cemented after you graduate (and the LSAC doesn't factor in a Master's GPA). Schools definitely care about both numbers!

David Busis

We wrote a blog post called "Does Attending a T14 School Matteer?" It might help you make up your mind: https://7sage.com/does-attending-a-t14-law-school-matter/

Leah M B

Is it possible to get a decent job after attending a 60s ranked law school? Sure. People do it. Many do not, though, and it matters a lot what your end goal is. If you want one of the fancy biglaw jobs that pay well into the 6 figures right out of school, your odds are basically nil at a 60s rank and slim to ok at the 30s, depending on the school and area.

Attending a well-respected regional law school in the area where you want to work is a good choice for many. But is there a difference between attending a 30s vs 60s school? In curriculum, not necessarily. But law is one of those professions where "prestige" of your degree is factored into your employability. Attending a 30s ranked school vs 60s will likely make more jobs available to you both during school and after graduation. It also likely means that you may not have be one of the top ranked students in your school in order to secure a decent job.

I'd advise you to do some research at lstreports.com and look up employment and bar passage information for the schools you are interested in.

One last issue to consider is the money. Particularly if you are going to a lower ranked school, you should be paying little to nothing for your degree. The odds of either not finding a job or finding one but it only pays $50k are much higher the further you go down the rankings. You don't want to come out of law school with $200k in debt and a job that pays $50k. That's the stuff of nightmares.

And finally, I know you don't want to take a "gap year," but I think that would really be your wisest choice. If you keep working on the LSAT, raise it up and apply early for the next cycle, you not only will have a shot at even better schools, but even larger scholarships at the ones you are already considering. If one more year could mean an extra $60k-$100k in scholarship money, that is a damn bargain. Plus, many schools prefer that you have some work experience prior to matriculating.

Whatever you choose though, best of luck!

Sprinkles

@"Leah M B" said:
Is it possible to get a decent job after attending a 60s ranked law school? Sure. People do it. Many do not, though, and it matters a lot what your end goal is. If you want one of the fancy biglaw jobs that pay well into the 6 figures right out of school, your odds are basically nil at a 60s rank and slim to ok at the 30s, depending on the school and area.

Attending a well-respected regional law school in the area where you want to work is a good choice for many. But is there a difference between attending a 30s vs 60s school? In curriculum, not necessarily. But law is one of those professions where "prestige" of your degree is factored into your employability. Attending a 30s ranked school vs 60s will likely make more jobs available to you both during school and after graduation. It also likely means that you may not have be one of the top ranked students in your school in order to secure a decent job.

I'd advise you to do some research at lstreports.com and look up employment and bar passage information for the schools you are interested in.

One last issue to consider is the money. Particularly if you are going to a lower ranked school, you should be paying little to nothing for your degree. The odds of either not finding a job or finding one but it only pays $50k are much higher the further you go down the rankings. You don't want to come out of law school with $200k in debt and a job that pays $50k. That's the stuff of nightmares.

And finally, I know you don't want to take a "gap year," but I think that would really be your wisest choice. If you keep working on the LSAT, raise it up and apply early for the next cycle, you not only will have a shot at even better schools, but even larger scholarships at the ones you are already considering. If one more year could mean an extra $60k-$100k in scholarship money, that is a damn bargain. Plus, many schools prefer that you have some work experience prior to matriculating.

Whatever you choose though, best of luck!

Very solid advice and well written. Thanks Leah!

fLAWless

@Louislepauvre said:
The highest ranked school I am applying to is Fordham which is in the 30’s. I’m only applying to schools in NYC, because my life is here and I can’t leave. The other schools I am applying to: Cardozo, Brooklyn Law School, New York Law School, St John’s are ranked anywhere from 50 to 120. If you’re a top performer at a regional law school, you can get a job in Big Law. But you have to be a top performer, as opposed to NYU/Columbia where it’s more heavily recruited. So, it all depends on the market, what you want to do, the school, etc. If you want a federal clerkship, you can’t go to a school in an 80s rank (generally, I’m sure there are exceptions).

This is such a coincidence because I am applying in the same area as you!! When I mentioned a school that was in the 30's I was referring to Fordham lol! That is my goal school tbh. I feel the same way as you, I could never leave NYC. You made a lot of good points. Thank you for your feedback and good luck to you!

fLAWless

@drbrown2 said:
Don't be so resistant to taking a year off. First, it will help you be more prepared for law school which could translate into a better job. Second, it could be an opportunity for you to continue studying and raise your score. Third, the combination of applying early next cycle with some work experience and a higher LSAT score could give you access to higher ranking schools. Outside of the top programs, the ranking is less important than the access to jobs and bar passage rate. I don't think that just because a school ranked in the 30s accepts you that you should discard offers from other top 50 schools that potentially are in a better legal market or have a better alumni base. Job prospects are especially important if you plan on taking out loans to pay for your education. The average salary of first year associates is skewed by all the big law jobs offering $180k. In smaller markets and in smaller law firms, the number is much lower. I'm sure you've heard this all before, but I truly believe students should be as strategic as possible in this applications process and avoid taking on huge debt unless they are going to a top school.

You also mentioned going to a lower ranked school and transferring. I would never go to a school with the intent of transferring, but if you find yourself with an opportunity to transfer to a top school and think you will substantially improve your chances of getting good summer jobs then I think that is a good path. I've heard of top students receiving a full ride scholarship at the lowest tiered for-profit schools turning down transfer opportunities to T14 schools, and being completely unable to find a good job after graduation. They were literally top of their class and still couldn't find employment. At least they didn't pay, but I assume they wish they had taken the transfer opportunity so they would have more access to good paying firms.

Anyways, sorry for the wall of text. Just do some research and talk to some current students if you can, formulate an informed strategy, and stick to it.

Please don't apologize! I appreciate EVERY word of advice you have provided for me. Thank you for taking the time to explain the benefits of taking the gap year that I fear so much, lol. You definitely gave me a different perspective on it and if I am not ready by January, I think this is my best option. I would feel a lot more confident applying with a better score, better work experience, and at an earlier time in the cycle as you mentioned. Also, stating that you "would never go to a school with the intent of transferring" really stood out to me. It's an extremely valid point.. it makes no sense to go somewhere that I do not want to be in the first place. The real-life situations you included were also very impactful. I thank you for your honesty and your help!

fLAWless

@turnercm said:
What's your GPA? Make sure that it is as high as possible and ensure studying for LSAT doesn't hinder that. GPAs are cemented after you graduate (and the LSAC doesn't factor in a Master's GPA). Schools definitely care about both numbers!

My GPA is a 3.56, but I have all A's in my classes (I'm taking 6 right now) and will be taking 2 winter classes in January in which I will also aim for A's so I'm hoping for a 3.6 by the end of those classes, and a high 3.6/3.7 by the end of senior year. You are completely right, this is the only chance I have to boost my GPA and letting the LSAT interfere wouldn't be right. It hasn't so far, but I will be more aware and on top of my classes bc even though I am doing well, my mind has been in LSAT world lolol. Thank you for mentioning this!

fLAWless

@"David.Busis" said:
We wrote a blog post called "Does Attending a T14 School Matteer?" It might help you make up your mind: https://7sage.com/does-attending-a-t14-law-school-matter/

Thank you for pointing this out I had no idea! I looked over the article and found it EXTREMELY helpful. It has definitely had an impact on my thought process. I appreciate your help

fLAWless

@"Leah M B" said:
Is it possible to get a decent job after attending a 60s ranked law school? Sure. People do it. Many do not, though, and it matters a lot what your end goal is. If you want one of the fancy biglaw jobs that pay well into the 6 figures right out of school, your odds are basically nil at a 60s rank and slim to ok at the 30s, depending on the school and area.

Attending a well-respected regional law school in the area where you want to work is a good choice for many. But is there a difference between attending a 30s vs 60s school? In curriculum, not necessarily. But law is one of those professions where "prestige" of your degree is factored into your employability. Attending a 30s ranked school vs 60s will likely make more jobs available to you both during school and after graduation. It also likely means that you may not have be one of the top ranked students in your school in order to secure a decent job.

I'd advise you to do some research at lstreports.com and look up employment and bar passage information for the schools you are interested in.

One last issue to consider is the money. Particularly if you are going to a lower ranked school, you should be paying little to nothing for your degree. The odds of either not finding a job or finding one but it only pays $50k are much higher the further you go down the rankings. You don't want to come out of law school with $200k in debt and a job that pays $50k. That's the stuff of nightmares.

And finally, I know you don't want to take a "gap year," but I think that would really be your wisest choice. If you keep working on the LSAT, raise it up and apply early for the next cycle, you not only will have a shot at even better schools, but even larger scholarships at the ones you are already considering. If one more year could mean an extra $60k-$100k in scholarship money, that is a damn bargain. Plus, many schools prefer that you have some work experience prior to matriculating.

Whatever you choose though, best of luck!

Thank you for bringing up the financial aspect of law school, because although it is a very important part of the journey I have been so caught up on getting into law school for the fall 2019 school year that I have nearly forgotten about that part (I know right, how could I?!?). I agree, I think that the gap year may in fact be the best choice, especially with all of the points you made. I would also like to thank you for providing me with that link. I will definitely look into all of the schools I am interested in further with that. I appreciate your time and effort in helping me out with applying for law school. I wish you the best!

fLAWless

@Sprinkles said:

@"Leah M B" said:
Is it possible to get a decent job after attending a 60s ranked law school? Sure. People do it. Many do not, though, and it matters a lot what your end goal is. If you want one of the fancy biglaw jobs that pay well into the 6 figures right out of school, your odds are basically nil at a 60s rank and slim to ok at the 30s, depending on the school and area.

Attending a well-respected regional law school in the area where you want to work is a good choice for many. But is there a difference between attending a 30s vs 60s school? In curriculum, not necessarily. But law is one of those professions where "prestige" of your degree is factored into your employability. Attending a 30s ranked school vs 60s will likely make more jobs available to you both during school and after graduation. It also likely means that you may not have be one of the top ranked students in your school in order to secure a decent job.

I'd advise you to do some research at lstreports.com and look up employment and bar passage information for the schools you are interested in.

One last issue to consider is the money. Particularly if you are going to a lower ranked school, you should be paying little to nothing for your degree. The odds of either not finding a job or finding one but it only pays $50k are much higher the further you go down the rankings. You don't want to come out of law school with $200k in debt and a job that pays $50k. That's the stuff of nightmares.

And finally, I know you don't want to take a "gap year," but I think that would really be your wisest choice. If you keep working on the LSAT, raise it up and apply early for the next cycle, you not only will have a shot at even better schools, but even larger scholarships at the ones you are already considering. If one more year could mean an extra $60k-$100k in scholarship money, that is a damn bargain. Plus, many schools prefer that you have some work experience prior to matriculating.

Whatever you choose though, best of luck!

Very solid advice and well written. Thanks Leah!

Yes it was! I hope this helped you out as much as it helped me!!

AudaciousRed

@fLAWless said:
My GPA is a 3.56, but I have all A's in my classes (I'm taking 6 right now) and will be taking 2 winter classes in January in which I will also aim for A's so I'm hoping for a 3.6 by the end of those classes, and a high 3.6/3.7 by the end of senior year. You are completely right, this is the only chance I have to boost my GPA and letting the LSAT interfere wouldn't be right. It hasn't so far, but I will be more aware and on top of my classes bc even though I am doing well, my mind has been in LSAT world lolol. Thank you for mentioning this!

Same boat! I had signed up for Nov after the disaster that was June thinking that was plenty of time.. then headed into a 16 cr semester with a class known to be difficult. LSAT can always be redone; Grades get locked in. Lesson learned. Take the test when you are ready. Don't pick a date 5 months down the road.
I have one more overloaded semester to go, and then I can study just LSAT all summer (and fall if I want to).
What helped me feel better was running the possibilities through the CAS GPA calculator. If I play my cards right and stay buckled down on school, my GPA will see a good nudge, possibly into the 4.+ range.
With a great GPA and a better LSAT score, that delay can potentially mean tens of thousands of dollars. Totally worth it.

fLAWless

@AudaciousRed said:

@fLAWless said:
My GPA is a 3.56, but I have all A's in my classes (I'm taking 6 right now) and will be taking 2 winter classes in January in which I will also aim for A's so I'm hoping for a 3.6 by the end of those classes, and a high 3.6/3.7 by the end of senior year. You are completely right, this is the only chance I have to boost my GPA and letting the LSAT interfere wouldn't be right. It hasn't so far, but I will be more aware and on top of my classes bc even though I am doing well, my mind has been in LSAT world lolol. Thank you for mentioning this!

Same boat! I had signed up for Nov after the disaster that was June thinking that was plenty of time.. then headed into a 16 cr semester with a class known to be difficult. LSAT can always be redone; Grades get locked in. Lesson learned. Take the test when you are ready. Don't pick a date 5 months down the road.
I have one more overloaded semester to go, and then I can study just LSAT all summer (and fall if I want to).
What helped me feel better was running the possibilities through the CAS GPA calculator. If I play my cards right and stay buckled down on school, my GPA will see a good nudge, possibly into the 4.+ range.
With a great GPA and a better LSAT score, that delay can potentially mean tens of thousands of dollars. Totally worth it.

Thank you so much for your feedback. You are completely right. This is our last chance to get the best grades that we can. I took a break from studying and I've been focusing on my classes more now that the semester is ending. I have also accepted that if I take a gap year it's for the best and it will only help me. Good luck to you & wish you the best!