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I see this categorization thrown around a lot. Is the point that there is a large quality drop off after the top 14? Or that the schools in the top 14 tend to be consistent over time?
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I see this categorization thrown around a lot. Is the point that there is a large quality drop off after the top 14? Or that the schools in the top 14 tend to be consistent over time?
34 comments
Back to the original question... the t13/14 is considered a meaningful cutoff because of its consistency. Until last year with GULC, the top 14 were always the same, just occasionally reorganized. So you knew that Northwestern or Cornell was going to remain as reputable when you graduated. Plus you knew the past 20 years graduates were quality lawyers, judges, etc available for networking.
@twssmith644 said:
@catgonzalez1974737 said:
@suhbk3 said:
Wait wait are you guys saying if we can't get into anything beyond T14 it's not worth the time and effort? Texas A&M's statistics for class of 2016 show 85% employment with 80% bar pass rate and salaries ranging from 50k (lowest reported) to 128k (highest reported) with the median ranging from 60k to 100k. They are considered tier 3 law school with the tuition ~30k for in-state residents and ~40k for out-of-state residents. Same goes for SMU's Dedman with 88.5% employment and 84.5% bar passage rate. Dedman's salary and tuition, of course, being higher than that of A&M and is a tier 2 law school... I'm sure there will always be a few unlucky ones who don't pass the bar on their first try just as there are people who don't get the "passing score" on the LSAT for their school of choosing on their first try. I'm not trying to be an asshole nor discredit T14 in any way because I do agree with what you guys are saying to a certain extent. Correct me if I'm not wrong but aren't we trying to overcome this kind of all or nothing mentality by studying for the LSAT? The CBTs I mean lolol.
Make sure that you are looking at what percentage of jobs are bar passage required jobs. Another thing that law schools consider is whether you have any job when reporting employment statistics of their own, even if you are working at Starbucks. So ask them what % or what absolute number of their alumni are working jobs that require them to have bar passage, and it'll show you what number of students are actually using their law degree. Just something to consider when reading these statistics, because they can be misleading.
It is also important to look beyond the percentage of students who get into big law. Often times, people work in big law as clerks or staff attournies, not as associates. Law clerks and staff attornies tend to make much less than their biglaw associate counterparts and have less career flexibility. I read in TLS that having staff attorney position on your resume is like Scarlet letter of sorts. Check nalp reports to see compare the number of associates vs law clerks and staff attornies
@catgonzalez1974737 said:
@suhbk3 said:
Wait wait are you guys saying if we can't get into anything beyond T14 it's not worth the time and effort? Texas A&M's statistics for class of 2016 show 85% employment with 80% bar pass rate and salaries ranging from 50k (lowest reported) to 128k (highest reported) with the median ranging from 60k to 100k. They are considered tier 3 law school with the tuition ~30k for in-state residents and ~40k for out-of-state residents. Same goes for SMU's Dedman with 88.5% employment and 84.5% bar passage rate. Dedman's salary and tuition, of course, being higher than that of A&M and is a tier 2 law school... I'm sure there will always be a few unlucky ones who don't pass the bar on their first try just as there are people who don't get the "passing score" on the LSAT for their school of choosing on their first try. I'm not trying to be an asshole nor discredit T14 in any way because I do agree with what you guys are saying to a certain extent. Correct me if I'm not wrong but aren't we trying to overcome this kind of all or nothing mentality by studying for the LSAT? The CBTs I mean lolol.
Make sure that you are looking at what percentage of jobs are bar passage required jobs. Another thing that law schools consider is whether you have any job when reporting employment statistics of their own, even if you are working at Starbucks. So ask them what % or what absolute number of their alumni are working jobs that require them to have bar passage, and it'll show you what number of students are actually using their law degree. Just something to consider when reading these statistics, because they can be misleading.
It is also important to look beyond the percentage of students who get into big law. Often times, people work in big law as clerks or staff attournies, not as associates. Law clerks and staff attornies tend to make much less than their biglaw counterparts and have less career flexibility. I read in TLS that having staff attorney position on your resume is like Scarlet letter of sorts. Check NALP to see how many are staff attornies and law clerks vs associates
@twssmith644 said:
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
In law? Without question! This is a huge part of lawyer success. The best lawyers are people-readers.
Yeah! I wouldn't say some. Perhaps most if not all. Haha.
@jkatz1488955 said:
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
Bryan Garner says legal success comes down to two things: writing skills and people skills.
Would be cool if lsat tested people skills more heavily ;)
@suhbk3 said:
Wait wait are you guys saying if we can't get into anything beyond T14 it's not worth the time and effort? Texas A&M's statistics for class of 2016 show 85% employment with 80% bar pass rate and salaries ranging from 50k (lowest reported) to 128k (highest reported) with the median ranging from 60k to 100k. They are considered tier 3 law school with the tuition ~30k for in-state residents and ~40k for out-of-state residents. Same goes for SMU's Dedman with 88.5% employment and 84.5% bar passage rate. Dedman's salary and tuition, of course, being higher than that of A&M and is a tier 2 law school... I'm sure there will always be a few unlucky ones who don't pass the bar on their first try just as there are people who don't get the "passing score" on the LSAT for their school of choosing on their first try. I'm not trying to be an asshole nor discredit T14 in any way because I do agree with what you guys are saying to a certain extent. Correct me if I'm not wrong but aren't we trying to overcome this kind of all or nothing mentality by studying for the LSAT? The CBTs I mean lolol.
Make sure that you are looking at what percentage of jobs are bar passage required jobs. Another thing that law schools consider is whether you have any job when reporting employment statistics of their own, even if you are working at Starbucks. So ask them what % or what absolute number of their alumni are working jobs that require them to have bar passage, and it'll show you what number of students are actually using their law degree. Just something to consider when reading these statistics, because they can be misleading.
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
Bryan Garner says legal success comes down to two things: writing skills and people skills.
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
In law? Without question! This is a huge part of lawyer success. The best lawyers are people-readers.
Yeah! I wouldn't say some. Perhaps most if not all careers rely upon some level of people skills and leadership for success. Haha.
@ohnoeshalpme804 said:
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
In law? Without question! This is a huge part of lawyer success. The best lawyers are people-readers.
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
It's name recognition and access to opening doors. It depends on what you want to do, and where you want to work. If you want to be on the Supreme Court, most likely you would want to go to a school that has access (professors, alumni, programs) that get you on the correct career path. If you are going to be a probate lawyer in West Virginia, then yeah, you don't need to spend $150K at Harvard. Just have a good idea of what you want to do, and how much you are willing to give up. I've worked for lawyers who went to very high tier schools, who didn't know shit. I've worked for lawyers who went to the State school part time at night, and were the best damn lawyers around.
@twssmith644 said:
@katrakkade441 said:
@twssmith644 @ohnoeshalpme804 @jkatz1488955 As someone who shamelessly bailed on med school during senior year with a 4.0 science GPA solely to chase merit-based scholarships (which don't exist AT ALL in med school) to a T14/a career in Big Law, I can confirm that law has the potential to be just as/more lucrative than medicine.
Most family doctors/internists barely break 200k mid-career, and are swimming in 500k of debt if they went to a decent medical school. A Big Law parter will easily make upwards of $500k/year—on par with an orthopedic surgeon (5yr residency)... And associate pay is FAR better than resident pay (~3x as much).
Entirely anecdotal but couple of family doctors I work with make close to low million dollars as they operate their own practices as well as get paid by hospitals. Also @ohnoeshalpme804 dont alot of biglaw associates leave the field after five years? Not saying those lawyers have unstable careers though. I'm also not entirely convinced that BigLaw partners should be compared to orthapedic surgeons. While both pathways are exceedingly difficult, becoming a BigLaw partner is more about how much money and business you can bring to the firm. You have to be a rainmaker and less than 1 percent of higher level associates are even considered for partner track. From my limited understanding, becoming an orthapedic surgeon doesnt entail these things to a significant degree. Once you go through the boards and extra years of schooling, you can become a suegeon but just graduatig from law school and being well versed in the law won't gurantee partner track.
There are a number of ways in which these career tracks are not parallel. lol
Good luck making millions as a surgeon without dedicating practically your entire life to the pursuit. Part of the reason lawyers have the reputation they do is because they make money hand over fist for doing things that perhaps shouldn't be so lucrative.
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@katrakkade441 said:
@twssmith644 @ohnoeshalpme804 @jkatz1488955 As someone who shamelessly bailed on med school during senior year with a 4.0 science GPA solely to chase merit-based scholarships (which don't exist AT ALL in med school) to a T14/a career in Big Law, I can confirm that law has the potential to be just as/more lucrative than medicine.
Most family doctors/internists barely break 200k mid-career, and are swimming in 500k of debt if they went to a decent medical school. A Big Law parter will easily make upwards of $500k/year—on par with an orthopedic surgeon (5yr residency)... And associate pay is FAR better than resident pay (~3x as much).
Entirely anecdotal but couple of family doctors I work with make close to low million dollars as they operate their own practices as well as get paid by hospitals. Also @ohnoeshalpme804 dont alot of biglaw associates leave the field after five years? Not saying those lawyers have unstable careers though. I'm also not entirely convinced that BigLaw partners should be compared to orthapedic surgeons. While both pathways are exceedingly difficult, becoming a BigLaw partner is more about how much money and business you can bring to the firm. You have to be a rainmaker and less than 1 percent of higher level associates are even considered for partner track. From my limited understanding, becoming an orthapedic surgeon doesnt entail these things to a significant degree. Once you go through the boards and extra years of schooling, you can become a suegeon but just graduatig from law school and being well versed in the law won't gurantee partner track.
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This is a very curious and serious conversation about law schools and debt avoidance.
The economic crisis left many people coming out of law school with huge loans with few viable job prospects that dettered the next cycle of possible applicants from pursuing law degrees for a couple of years. I kind of relate it to a Bear & Bull market swing and now more people see pursuing a law degree as more financially viable with more promising job opportunities.
Given that I am regionally locked due to personal circumstances but my study buddies are not, I have tried to understand the difference regarding the different tiered schools. Appreciate any input on my non-science based analysis:)
The top tiered schools teach law on a theoretical level providing understanding that can be transferable to any state that you want to take the bar. As you slide down the scale for lower tiered schools, they will focus more on law that teaches to the state bar exam. Depending on your post-law aspirations, this is critical, imo. T-14 is there for a reason in that they open doors for future opportunities that lower ranked schools may not be able to provide. One thing that I do hear from people is that for lower ranked schools if you want big law or clerkship opportunities you will have to be in the top percentile of your class versus others that may not have to given their law schools pedigree. (apologies if inaccurate)
Excited for all my friends that have worked so hard to attend the best law school for them especially those that are reaching for T-14. Their accomplishments are success stories but that has no bearing on my success story on where I want to go to law school. Do the research on what is the best for you given your situation and hope you share when you achieve your goals (3
All the best!!(/p)
For my options, I have a Tier 2 theoretical with not strong local job placement, top Tier 3 emphasis on state bar with great placement and a Tier 4 that is recognized as the best value for law school given the price and job placement. Hmmm, wonder which school I want to go to :wink:
@twssmith644 said:
@jkatz1488955 said:
@twssmith644 said:
I wouldn't say relatively swift financial freedom. Unless you are a doctor or in the medical field
Financial freedom is subjective, but I think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest doctors quickly achieve anything.
Undergrad (4 years)
Medical school (4 years)
Residency (3+ years)
Woops let me redact. Not quick financial freedom. Rather, a career that is more stable and lucrative than law.
T14 law graduates have fairly stable and lucrative careers, I'd say. I don't think MDs are exactly in it for the money, either. Lawyers who stay in Big Law their entire careers almost always make huge money.
@jkatz1488955 said:
@twssmith644 said:
I wouldn't say relatively swift financial freedom. Unless you are a doctor or in the medical field
Financial freedom is subjective, but I think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest doctors quickly achieve anything.
Undergrad (4 years)
Medical school (4 years)
Residency (3+ years)
Woops let me redact. Not quick financial freedom. Rather, a career that is more stable and lucrative than law.
@twssmith644 said:
I wouldn't say relatively swift financial freedom. Unless you are a doctor or in the medical field
Financial freedom is subjective, but I think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest doctors quickly achieve anything.
Undergrad (4 years)
Medical school (4 years)
Residency (3+ years)
@suhbk3 said:
Ohhhhh ok, so it's really about how fast can you pay off the loans, the freedom of accumulating wealth beyond that and the availability of opportunities in the future. Thanks for explaining and not writing me off as an ignorant asshole guys I really appreciate it. I was extremely lucky enough to have my school pay for my degree so I'm only now figuring out how to pay for law school with student loans... I never imagined myself in the position of Big Laws nor going to T14. I just want to work locally and settle down so I get a little frustrated when seeing people write off schools outside T14. It really sucks how expensive schools are these days even when the returns aren't really guaranteed anymore. @leahbeuk911 @ohnoeshalpme804
So, I guess the significance of T14 is really simple huh? Relatively swift financial freedom and limitless potential for your career. This would be much less likely as you leave that circle.
I wouldn't say relatively swift financial freedom. Unless you are a doctor or in the medical field, most corporate and all other jobs are easily prone to layoffs and recessions. Financial freedom is probably best achieved by having multiple sources of passive income haha.
@leahbeuk911
Sure. I just don't think it's necessarily a precipitous drop between #14 and #15, you know? More of a spectrum. I don't think there's anything magical about the 13/14 cut off. I think if you go anywhere in the T25, you're going to get a very good education.
A very good education for sure. I'm certainly not T14 or bust since I'm highly debt averse and my numbers are unlikely to get me a sizeable scholly for T14. But I wonder if the professor quality is truly a spectrum. We know that prestige entices big law employers to a large degree. So why not professors too? I don't have strong feelings about this -- just musing.
@suhbk3
Yes, T14 schools, I'm certain, have incredible group of professors and resources that will prove far more superior compared to lower ranked schools but that doesn't necessarily mean that people going to a lower ranked schools would not be able to embark on a successful legal career, let alone live comfortably
Hey Brian. I didn't interpret anything you said to have a trollish edge. I think your helping us have a nice convo here so thanks for jumping in. Just wanted to share one more possible difference between the T14 and the rest. I agree with everything you said.
I think a lot of the “T-14 or bust” mentality comes from an overall decline in the legal market since the generation before ours. When my parents went to school, going to law school—any law school—was considered a golden ticket to the middle class. It’s no longer a golden ticket... like others have said in this thread, law degrees are expensive and regionalized and some markets are oversaturated.
If you want a slightly depressing read, check out this blog https://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/law-school_b_2713943.html and this Reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/4f9ve4/how_to_calculate_whether_school_x_is_worth_the/
One of my recommenders sent these to me. He said if none of this gives you pause, apply to law school.
@jkatz1488955 Well of course haha I agree with you there. I'm on the same boat as the author of the original post. I saw the term T14 thrown around quite a bit as well and didn't grasp the scope of the significance of them until I posted on this thread. I'm seriously not trying to troll or anything. I'm just genuinely curious because I have plenty of friends who went to many of T14 schools as undergrads and are making quite a bit of money at big name companies. I also have friends who went to schools not even close to the T14 as undergrads but are still pretty well off even though they took on quite a bit of debt (I'm assuming law school tuition at a specific school doesn't differ much from their tuition for other majors). So I'm just trying to apply that logic into law schools. I was merely trying to challenge the idea that not going to T14 would prove to be detrimental for future well-being. Yes, T14 schools, I'm certain, have incredible group of professors and resources that will prove far more superior compared to lower ranked schools but that doesn't necessarily mean that people going to a lower ranked schools would not be able to embark on a successful legal career, let alone live comfortably; because I know that not everyone has the privilege to attend these top schools and successfully complete their degrees from them. Of course, if I were to say that ALL lower ranked schools WILL provide lucrative career opportunities, I would smack myself in the face and hope that you would too, but that's not what I'm trying to say. I hope I don't offend anybody because I really am not trying to. Just hoping for a civil discussion about something I'm sure many of the prospective law students might have questions about.
@jkatz1488955 said:
So, I guess the significance of T14 is really simple huh? Relatively swift financial freedom and limitless potential for your career. This would be much less likely as you leave that circle.
I assume that the higher ranked schools generally have better professors and I also assume this is especially true for harvard, yale, and stanford. It would make sense. If that is not the case, would love to your thoughts.
Sure. I just don't think it's necessarily a precipitous drop between #14 and #15, you know? More of a spectrum. I don't think there's anything magical about the 13/14 cut off. I think if you go anywhere in the T25, you're going to get a very good education.
So, I guess the significance of T14 is really simple huh? Relatively swift financial freedom and limitless potential for your career. This would be much less likely as you leave that circle.
I assume that the higher ranked schools generally have better professors and I also assume this is especially true for harvard, yale, and stanford. It would make sense. If that is not the case, would love to your thoughts.
Ohhhhh ok, so it's really about how fast can you pay off the loans, the freedom of accumulating wealth beyond that and the availability of opportunities in the future. Thanks for explaining and not writing me off as an ignorant asshole guys I really appreciate it. I was extremely lucky enough to have my school pay for my degree so I'm only now figuring out how to pay for law school with student loans... I never imagined myself in the position of Big Laws nor going to T14. I just want to work locally and settle down so I get a little frustrated when seeing people write off schools outside T14. It really sucks how expensive schools are these days even when the returns aren't really guaranteed anymore. @leahbeuk911 @ohnoeshalpme804
So, I guess the significance of T14 is really simple huh? Relatively swift financial freedom and limitless potential for your career. This would be much less likely as you leave that circle.