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Michigan 2L AMA
Seeking Perfection
Alum Member
University of Michigan 2L AMA
About me:
To make a long story short...
7 Sage and specifically the Pacifico Attack Strategy helped me make a good LSAT score great which enabled me to get a $50,000 a year scholarship to the Top 14 school in my home state of Michigan as a KJD.
https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2737/logic-games-attack-strategy/p1
1L year, I received some fairly ordinary grades which were slightly below median while enjoying learning from some excellent professors and with my extraordinary peers some of whom I consider among my closest friends.
I was not sure if I wanted to pursue a public interest path or seek a firm job. So I applied to some firm positions in a kind of half-hearted way and didn't even get an interview. The first unpaid public interest job that I applied to, a job at the local Public Defender's office, immediately gave me a spot with no request whatsoever for grades or an interview. In part, because you can represent clients on the record in court in Michigan with the Public Defender's Office, I took the job. I financed my summer with a $4000 loan available to all 1Ls that I would only have to repay if I made a certain amount of money combined in my two summers.
At the end of summer, I went through Early Interview Week and despite bidding the least grade selective firms that I could and focussing heavilly on Michigan firms where my ties should have been appealing and interviewing with 25 firms(the max for our EIW), I received 0 call backs.
Since then, I have continued to apply to firms and cold-emailed many with minimal success.
I had only received any further interviews through OCI which has continued to have smaller firms and employers visit our campus.
However, I recently applied to a clerkship position during the academic year with a small firm in the area on Symplicity where employers can post job openings. After sending a follow up email, they immediately offered me an interview later in the week. After the interview which I thought went well, they offered me a position(paid, relatively sparsely compared to Big Law) during the academic year and the upcoming summer. I immediately accepted.
If that eventually turns into a real job, I'll count law school as a success because I have kept my debt pretty low(both through the scholarship and by commuting from my family home now) and will be able to pay it off with even a moderate salary. Within a year or so, I'll have paid off my debt as long as I'm making some money. So, I won't be trapped by debt and will hopefully be a happy lawyer.
That basically brings us to the present.
Ask Me Anything: I'll answer if it doesn't reveal my identity too much more than I already have.
Comments
Thanks for this! And congrats on making it this far without a mountain of debt!!!
If you could go back and approach landing a public interest opportunity differently, what would you do? Do you feel like you used all of Michigan’s resources for students interested in pursuing public interest work?
I think it worked out well. I won't be making enough next summer to have to pay back any of the loan. Additionally, not many people get to go on the record in court defending clients their first summer.
I probably could have taken better advantage of resources if I'd known what I wanted to do. I really just wanted to get a taste of litigation though and definitely got that.
However, if I wanted Big Law, I would have been better off aggressively applying to lots of firm jobs as a 1L. Getting one of these early enough insulates you from your grades since they'll probably ask you back for another summer and ultimately hire you unless your grades are truly awful.
Really, I think anyone with a more specific goal in mind than mine which was basically find some way to get a legal job that will make me happy could do better for themselves by gunning for a good position as a 1L before grades matter as much and potentially before any are even in.
If someone wanted to be a public defender or do criminal defense privately my job was basically the best public interest job they could get.
I think figuring out more of what you actually want to do within law before law school could really let someone take advantage of the 1L summer job search.
Thank you for doing this. I remember reading your posts. Looking back-and hindsight is always 20/20- is there anything you would have done differently going into law school? For instance, there is a debate about what one should try to learn the summer before 1L, substantively, would you do anything differently? What did you do to prep? I believe I remember you saying you read: Getting To Maybe. Do you recommend a 0L looking at any commercial outlines?
3L big law hunting is hard but it's worth a try.
I'd like to point out to future bidders for U of M that limiting yourself to Michigan is not doing yourself any favors. U of M places heavily in NY.
A few questions on your OCI experience:
1. Did you do mock interviews?
2. Any thoughts on why you didn't get any callbacks?
3. How did your classmates do?
4. How has career services supported you post OCI?
No harm in aiming for a 1L SA position but they are extremely difficult to land outside diversity and IP (not to say they are easy to get from either of those groups).
I read Getting to Maybe. I also read most of an Examples and Explanations for Torts.
If I had to do it again, I might do more substantive prep and read E and E's or other supplements for all the 1 L subjects. I wouldn't memorkze them or study doctrine or anything, but would just read them so I had a idea of where all my classes were going. I think that could help with outlining and also make it easier to start taking practice exams sooner.
Sorry this is long winded, but I'm a faster typer now and don't have time to edit it.
1L Big Law positions are much rarer.
However, almost everyone counts as diversity for law firms. You can apply to diversity positions if you are a first generation law student, any non-white race, female, gay, certain religions ect. So for me, I'm a first generation law student even though my mom has a PhD and my dad two Master's degrees. My dad is from India, which like most Asian countries is a disadvantage in undergraduate admissions and roughly neutral in law school admissions.
So, it feels awkward because we think of diversity as helping groups that are discriminated against, but firms use it in a much broader sense.
Most 1Ls I knew didn't apply for a lot of firm positions because we knew they were rare and there is no streamlined process like with OCI. However, a surprising number of those who did got one. Many of those who got them got them before grades came out from first semester. That takes almost all of the risk out of it, if you can do it. It's hard to apply to many because you are so busy during 1L, but if you came in with a couple versions of cover letters ready, went over your resume with your counselor earlier than most do and maybe had tried to make a list of firms with diversity positions ahead of time, I think a student at Michigan could probably have a fair shot at landing one. It will be even more plausible now that the start date for applying has changed. At the very least you get more interviewing practice earlier.
On applying mostly in the small market your school is in with ties to the market
There were roughly 30 people in my class aiming for Big Law jobs in Michigan. Of those, maybe 25 had really good ties to Michigan. Most of those have firm positions lined up, but it is hard to tell exactly how many and outside of my super section, I don't have any idea what their grades were.
I think my bidding strategy was fine. However, a couple more big grade unselective New York firms at the top of my list might have been good and I still sould have got most of my Michigan bids.
On OCI
1). I did three mock interviews. I did one with a New York firm that visited during 1L and did mock interviews. They didn't give much feedback though. The other two I did with OCP. They gave a lot of feedback about how to frame different answers and how to structure a response to the situational questions.
2) As far as why I didn't get call backs, I think there were two main reasons.
First, I don't think I interview very well. My voice tends to get quiet during conversations when I'm nervous.
Additionally, while I don't think I over-practiced for interviews I probably steered things back to me and my credentials and what I was prepared to talk about too much rather than just going with the flow of the conversation. A lot of people I know who got offers talked about rather random things in their interview which led to a job. The hobbies or interests section of your resume definitely better be something you are prepared to start an interesting conversation about. For a single line, it gets a lot of focus.
3) How did my class mates do? That's always hard to say. I had a really strong small core friend group that I was always going to know what happened with their employment. Of those 5, everyone got a Big Law job except me. One had grades higher than median. One had compable grades to me(a little below median). I don't know about the other two's grades exactly, but don't think their grades were stratospheric. 3 of those got their job through OCI and one shortly after.
I know one person who is still looking for a Big Law job. We were expressing our angst together about not having found a job until I did.
I know a bunch who found Big Law jobs, but don't know if I would have known if they hadn't.
Overall, I don't think the economy is hurting our placement much yet. However, several firms did tell me they were interviewing for fewer spots than the year before.
4) Post OCI, I have been in regular contact with OCP. They have given me access to some resources and the job I found was through Symplicity, but they haven't been great. If you come in asking for something specific like them doing a mock interview, going over your resume, going over your bid list, reading over a new cover letter, putting you in contact with a 3L or an alumni, they are great. But if you come in sort of uncertain, they don't do as much.
They have continued to have firms come to campus. And I have interviewed for some of those positions with as few as 5 total people from Michigan interviewing when there were more slots available. So my fellow students probably are not generally that desperate.
I also had the bad luck to have three different main counselors because both of my first two found other jobs. I think that was more of a fluke than anything.
As far as 3L Big Law positions, I probably would have some shot at them since I will have some sort of firm experience. However, I wanted a Big Law job because they generally offer their 2Ls real jobs at a higher rate, not because of the money. I have kept my debt really low and this partime job will help keep it lower. So while a Big Law salary would be nice, I'm not going to switch to a job that I probably won't like that much and will voluntarilly or otherwise leave after only a few years if I think I'll be happy at this smaller firm and they give me an offer at the end of next summer. Obviously, I'll have plenty of time to see if I like the people.
Thanks so much for posting this @"Seeking Perfection" ! I've been researching into different law schools' programs and I noticed that Michigan has an extensive list of clinical programs. I know you are just starting your second year so you may not have had exposure to the clinical programs but if you do have such experience I was hoping to hear about them.
I haven't taken a clinic yet, but I do plan on it even though I have the part time job now. If you bid on two clinics for all four semesters after 1 L, you are guaranteed one.
I know many people in clinics and it seems like they are a great way to get very closely supervised experience. Michigan's number of clinics mean you can probably get something in whatever area you want.
My criminal law professor directs the Michigan Innocence Clinic which just had an event a few days ago where someone they had exonerated came and spoke.
No question but wanted to pop in and say Go Blue! (and good luck!)
Go blue!
Can I ask what your GPA and LSAT was to get that big of a scholarship at Michigan?
I went straight through. So I had a 3.81 when they admitted me and when they extended the scholarship offer and a 3.84 when I graduated.
I took the LSAT twice getting a 172 initially and then a 180 after foolproofing logic games and blind reviewing almost all of the practice tests.
Hi I'm applying to Michigan right now. I wanted to learn more about the school. What is the law school culture like there? How do you like your professors and classmates? How do you like the Ann Arbor? I'm from California, and I've never been to Michigan. In your experience how have students from other states adapted to Ann Arbor?
Sorry for the delay. I'm not on 7 Sage as much as I once was.
I know a few people from California. I think for the most part they like things here. However, some may find Ann Arbor a little small especially if they don't have a car to drive into Detroit. You are busy enough in law school that finding things to do isn't too much of a problem though.
Obviously, the climate takes some people some getting used to. It's cold most of the year. We had our first substantial snowfall Friday and while it didn't really stick, it will within the next month and then things will probably be fairly snowy until April. If you are looking at U Chicago, Northwestern, or Cornell I imagine climate is roughly similar. I'm a native Michigander so its fun to tease my friends a little when they think it's cold. I and a friend from the UP walked out of the Lawyer's Club to get some food from Jimmy Johns during the cold day last year and teased them for thinking it was too cold to go out. My friend from the UP didn't where gloves which I thought was a bit bold.
Most students are from other states. I'd say its about 15-20 percent in-state, but you could probably check that.
I think the environment has been very nice. People are friendly with each other. Like what I have heard about most other schools you tend to make most of your first year friends in your section (since you have all your classes together). Beyond that, if you stay in the Lawyer's Club for 1L you'll probably settle down into eating with basically the same people twice a day except for days where you go to a lunch talk. That and the binding experience of 1L forges lasting friendships quickly. It has actually made it kind of hard to stop living in the Lawyer's Club. I'm commuting from home to save money, but both this summer and even now it feels a little off spending less time with my 1L core group that I was so close to for the first year. It doesn't help that one of them decided not to continue in law school after the summer(despite doing fairly well in the first year as far as I know) and therefore isn't around anymore.
For people who didn't bond as closely to people in their section or through the lawyer's club, student orgs and pro bono are great ways to meet friend.
The professors are brilliant and generally good teachers. A couple have been amazing lecturers. Honestly, if I wasn't paying for law school and was not going to be a lawyer, I would still want to be in most of my classes just for the interesting and thought provoking discussions. In fact, since I'm still not fully sure how long I'll want to be a lawyer and got a great scholarship in a way that is kind of what I am doing. All of them have always been very open and approachable during office hours too although office hours tended to be pretty full of students first semester.
I could go on and on, but long story short, I've liked it.
@"Seeking Perfection" wow thank you so much for this info. This is really useful information! I'm completing my Michigan application, right now, it this makes me even more excited about the school.
following up. were you able to get a biglaw summer associateship for your 2l summer?
I did not. I worked at the small local firm that I was already working at part time during the school year. I worked there during the summer, mostly remotely, but going in once or twice a week, I am working there part-time again during this school year. I am very happy there, like the poeple, and given my lack of substantial debt, would be happy to stay there. That said, they have not extended a formal offer yet, so I am applying to other jobs including through our OCI meet-the-employers week which is held through Zoom. However, few of the firms interview 3L's relative to 2L's. The counselors assure me that the number of jobs in smaller firms and public interest opportunities in Michigan that we can apply to through our job board on Symplicity will increase in the Spring relative to now.
I don't have a great sense of how many of my peers have jobs. It was my feeling that the majority who wanted summer positions through OCI got them. However, at least some were cancelled or shortened during the pandemic and so fewer than normal may result in actual job offers after graduation.