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So I finished undergrad in ’08, which by the way was a really shitty time to graduate, lol. Anyway. So I haven’t worked with my professors in a long long time and I’m not sure how valuable those letters would be. I also feel a little uncomfortable asking someone to vouch for me who I haven’t worked with for the better part of a decade. At best, all those letters can truthfully say is, “he was a great student ten years ago." I can get great professional letters all day long, but I’ve been doing the same work since I graduated and it’s nothing so impressive that I want multiples. So, I’m really not sure what to do.
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I was at the LSAC forum in San Fran on Thursday and one of the people in a LSAC class encouraged us to ask admins what that wanted to see if a letter of recommendation and how they were used during our table discussions.
Almost every single table I spoke to said to try and get an academic LOR as they want to see how you will perform in a school setting. They then encouraged at least one letter from an employer that highlights your leadership and work ethic and then an additional letter is a good option. School repeatedly said they are seeing a trend of 3 letters (if they allow that many). So if you can, get the Academic. I am 16 years post undergrad and they all recommended I try to reach out to one of them. Once they found out I had a Masters degree they said I needed at least one academic letter and I am 5 years out of my last Masters Program.
And you'd be surprised how easy it is to go back. As you'll see above many recommend sending a paper or a note, something that identifies you to the teacher. A paper you received a high grade on can be good. Call and ask to speak to them, they are used to writing recomendation letters. Its not saying you can't keep the ones you have, but add an academic if you can, especially if you are less than 10 years post undergrad or graduate program.
I graduated in '10. I reached out to the professors who knew me best or who I had later in my college years. I sent them old papers for their classes to remind them of my work. I went to a really small school though. Not sure what that would do at larger universities. If you worked as a TA under someone, that would be a good person to go to.
I wasn't going to submit any from professors, but the two I got and was planning on using were from the managing attorney and director of administration at the law firm I have worked at for 6 years, saying they would hire me as an attorney in a heartbeat and that they'd love for me to go back and work for them post-law. Is this a big mistake? I didn't keep in touch with any of my undergrad professors and was abroad for my entire junior year. Senior year I worked with some good professors, but just didn't make a point to form a relationship with them beyond the classroom (should have, but can't go back now).
I thought my LORs were strong - anyone have input on this?
@ngir1293288 Your plan is totally kosher. A lot of admissions officers encourage people in your situation to take another class for the express purpose of getting a fresh rec.
Wow, you know what, I just realized I completely framed this question wrong lol. I meant to say if any admissions officers, not the LSAC, would catch wind of it.
I dont think it will look like a stunt, they wont know the name of your professor, as it is generally not on your transcripts. Nor would they question in. The professor might say in their letter they just met you this summer, but I dont see how that would be an issue.
I know I'm a tad late to this party but I face a similar dilemma. I have one academic locked up, I can easily attain a professional rec, but honestly chances are slim to none that I can find another academic letter from like 8 years ago... So I came up with a quaizi sneaky way to get another academic LoR this summer and wanted some feedback from my fellow sages to see if this could work.
I plan to take a law related class at UCLA Extension (which is the extension school of UCLA that anyone is allowed to enroll in) or at another community college this summer.. Once there, I'll schmooze the professor for a few weeks, ace the class, and ask for an LoR at the end. I take the LSAT in Sept.. but I don't think adding one class along with my current part time job will adversely dent my study routine .. That being said, do you think admission reps from the respective schools I plan to apply to would catch wind of the stunt I was trying to pull, or do you guys think I can positively spin it to admissions officers by saying I wanted to acquaint myself with the legal field in preparation for 1L?
Thanks for the feedback!
@jhaldy10325 It sounds like you've answered your own question. Stick with academic letters!
nce I graduated and it’s nothing
I encountered a similar issue in the Army many times. I had several direct supervisors who wrote at about a sixth grade level and while they might have been happy to help, there was no way I would let a law school see a letter that was riddled with grammar and syntax issues. Some schools sometimes say they don't care about stuff like that, but I tend to think it reflects incredibly poorly on the applicant to pick someone who writes poorly.
I skipped a professional LOR (and again, I'm your exact same age) primarily for this reason.
It's that last consideration that concerns me with my pro letters. I've got nothing but love from those guys, but I just don't know that they understand what needs to go into a powerful LoR, or if they have the writing chops to express it with eloquence. That has been a really stressful element of this process: It's out of my control. I know any letters I ask for will be written with the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean shit to admissions unless it actually translates.
@jhaldy10325 I'd say you haven't been out of school long enough that a professional reference is absolutely necessary, so go with whoever you think will write the better letter. Consider how well each person knows you, how much each one likes you, and how well you think each one can write.
So, this thread has really set my mind at ease. Thanks so much for all the responses! I feel like I have a lot more options than I realized before.
So this new perspective leaves me with a follow up question. I feel confident I can get two good academic letters. I have other professors who will certainly still remember me, but with whom I just didn't work as closely with. It sounds like the general rule is, academic letters are preferred over pro letters. Should I go for a third academic letter or do I need the pro letter to provide at least some idea of what I've been up to the last decade?
[Edit: Okay, I remembered another teacher who would almost certainly write me a great letter. She was from freshman year and I've kept up with her and had actually forgotten I'd had a class with her. So if that changes the equation, I can make the third academic one a good one.]
@nye887085 Great question. I mean that you should take your recommender out for coffee or schedule a phone date. You don't need to ask for the LOR in stages—you can say from the start that you're looking for a recommendation—but it's important to have a conversation with your recommender before he or she writes the letter.
@thecubicleescapee957 , glad I wasn't the only one worrying about this! I think we're going to be okay though. I'm also sure that there has to be at least some level of understanding for nontrads. They may still prefer academic references but I don't think it will be a deal breaker. May as well ask though.
One thing I've read about asking for letters is to make sure you give your writers an out. Many people feel really uncomfortable saying no, which can leave you with a tepid letter which can be a huge black mark on your application. So what I think I'm going to do is maybe mention some of the schools I hope to be applying to, and then ask specifically for the kind of letter I would need to be competitive at programs like at school X. And then say that I totally understand if, because of how much time has elapsed, they feel like they may not be able to write that kind of a letter. That way they can blame it on the time elapsed/specific quality of letter I'm asking for without feeling so uncomfortable.
As long as you didn't go there it shouldn't be a big deal.
Would it be very odd to have the headmaster of a private school who I know well and have volunteered for in the past write a reference? She has provided job reference for me, as well.
For the difficult academic ones I think the best place to start is in and around the department you majored in. Hopefully you did better in your major than other areas and perhaps even crossed paths with certain professors in multiple classes. Also good to ask around to see who is big on writing LORs, takes them seriously, and could make up for an otherwise underwhelming impression you may have left.
@jhaldy10325 I am thinking outside the box & I have done a bit of editing for an author friend & helped her with testing for her novel. I am trying to think outside the box because like a lot of non traditional students I don't know if I went to my undergrad fully grasping how important it was to build those relationships. I was 22 and just trying to get a "real job" to pay bills, so as far as reaching out, I really do not think that is a possibility I can try... but I don't think I did anything really memorable. LET ME BE A LESSON PEOPLE :) . I have a friend that was just promoted as supervisor so I am going to try him out... I really do have a horrible a job and even if I do not get "accepted" to law school I will be leaving the work situation behind. I am trying to focus on the LSAT right now but I know in reality I have to start worrying about LORs too so I am very happy you posted this topic. It has me thinking outside the box.
What does this posed question mean? Do you wanna chat some more? Do we needto ask for the LOR in stages?
@ngir1293288 Ha!! Another good idea for a LOR - one of the authors who wrote for my book series. Maybe the guy who is the Vice Chairman of his department but in a different specialty than I am. We were even residents together many, many moons ago. Thanks for the very good thoughts, guys.
@jhaldy10325 Now, that is an interesting idea - getting a letter from someone on the film team. Guess the best person would be the director of the film. Technically the director works for the producers, but in reality the director is the big cheese so that takes care of the conflict of interest. Thanks for that thought, I will have to file that away in the keep folder.
The last consultant I spoke to said letters were hopefully no more than 3 years old.
It seems like academic letters shouldnt go stale, especially if they were written close to when you graduated. It seems like that would give the freshest perspective Maybe @msami1010493 can comment.
Ok this is great I missed that night. I was going to share with @jhaldy10325 that we do need at least 1 academic, but I didn't know that the preference was for two.
I graduated undergrad in 2000, Grad in 2005 and Grad in 2013. I do have one amazing LOR from my 2013 professor. The weird thing about that is, I have a "mentor" that checked my work, but they weren't a teacher, and the same professor oversaw all 18 credits for the professional certificate. Hmm... I will have to go see if I can find another one.
I currently have a LOR from the lawyer I worked with on all of my companies unemployment claims, a manager from my nonprofit who I mentored for a few years and then my new one will be from an academic institution, that I work for as a professor and curriculum designer... I am hoping that one, might help to bridge the missing academic LOR. Hmm... maybe I can get one from my program in 2004... and then drop a different letter.
Great topic