I guess they prefer people who go like, "I was thinking of studying political science in grad school but I already have a perfect GRE score, so maybe I should apply to law schools?" to people like me who spend years studying for the LSAT.
I took the GRE about 6 years ago, and here’s my thoughts re: difficulty, pros/cons.
The GRE is similar to but more difficult than the SAT, but only because the GRE is digital and recalculates based on how well you do on your first sections. If you ace the first English and math sections, you’ll receive very difficult second English and math sections. If you get this very hard second English section, it’s comparable to a hard LSAT RC section—not a walk in the park by any means. The GRE’s all on computer, and you can sign up to take it almost any time you want. You go in, you’re the only one taking the GRE usually, you leave your stuff in a locker, and you sit at a computer station with other people taking other sorts of tests in the same room. You don’t all start at the same time; you don’t all finish at the same time. The LSAT writing process is so highly ritualized that it’s very stressful... the GRE lacks all of that pomp and show.
The GRE is interesting because almost all graduate students end up taking it... math or physics PhDs, anthropology MAs, poetry MFAs, etc. So a lot of people tend to score highly in one section, particularly math since there are mathematicians taking a math test that doesn’t even have calculus on it.
Anecdotally, without studying, I was in the 90-92nd percentile on the GRE, and my LSAT diagnostic was 85th-ish percentile. I did well on the SAT, and I’m slightly better at math than RC, so maybe the GRE just plays to my strengths more than the LSAT.
Part of the difficulty of the LSAT for me is the sustained level of difficulty/intensity throughout the test. The first two sections on the GRE are only moderately difficult, and then if things are going well, you’ll get two actually hard sections. Alternatively, if things aren’t going well, you’ll get two soft-ball sections, realize you bombed the first two, cancel your score, and get on with your day. The LSAT is a whole other animal... you have no idea what section’s coming when, and it could all potentially be very hard. Then, you’re left with thoughts of canceling, speculation on the curve, etc., for weeks, whereas you get your GRE score before you leave the test site.
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
I think they need to adjust the LSAT difficulty level comparable to that of GRE, if the latter is gonna be widely accepted which seems to be the trend. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing how the LSAT would/could persist.
Yeah I would be surprised if this has any real impact on admissions stats, at least over the next few years...second what a lot of others said in that I feel like the number of people who would end up applying with only a GRE score are probably people who haven't put a ton of thought into law school anyway.
I would also hope that as schools who begin accepting the GRE, there will be more detailed info released on behalf of their admissions committees about how they compare it to the LSAT. Like is a super high GRE the equivalent of a 178 or something? I would be a little nervous to apply to a law school with just a GRE score at this point, even if it was a great score...I feel like this is some sort of scheme....
I considered grad school when I was just out of college and studied for the GRE..never took it so this isn't a completely accurate statement, but to me it seemed like there is absolutely no comparison in terms of difficulty or the amount of effort required to score in the 90+ percentile.
Here's a thought which might lift some spirits. If we all know the LSAT is harder than the GRE, I bet law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE. If law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE they might give a good LSAT score a bump vs. a good GRE score, all things being equal. If all this is true, then I don't think we'd have necessarily wasted our time with the LSAT.
who knows. I mean, I still feel like most of their admitted students will be based off of LSAT scores and not GRE scores. Idk, just an idea though.
Also, your post read like an LR inference question haha.. or no? or am I the only idiot who has let the LSAT consume them? I'm the only one? k cool, brb gonna apply to cooley because correlation DOES imply causation!!!!! sorry I'm just really bored.
Here's a thought which might lift some spirits. If we all know the LSAT is harder than the GRE, I bet law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE. If law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE they might give a good LSAT score a bump vs. a good GRE score, all things being equal. If all this is true, then I don't think we'd have necessarily wasted our time with the LSAT.
So Columbia will start accepting GRE in the next cycle (2018-2019 cycle), correct? At the end of this cycle, we will know how many got accepted to HLS using GRE....
Hey @pcainti665, it seems like we have to stick to LSAT for now.
At this point, the GRE is only good for students who have never taken an LSAT. If LSAT score, then it must be reported meaning it dominates.
— Dave Killoran (@dcsantos9826)
October 17, 2017
They are wrong. If an applicant has an LSAT score, it MUST be reported to the ABA. So, there's no hi GRE/low LSAT possibility at top schools
— Dave Killoran (@dcsantos9826)
October 17, 2017
Why does that kill the possibility of high GRE low LSAT? Can’t you just report both? Then you still have the LSAT but can say “look at my GRE to back up my story that I’m good enough”?
Because they have to report LSAT scores to ABA...? I don't know. That's what Dave Killoran says.
We queried each school on this, they all said if LSAT score exists, it will be used. But change is afoot, and I'd suspect it changes later
— Dave Killoran (@dcsantos9826)
October 17, 2017
This is what Spivey Consulting says:
Just wait until next year then it will start really mattering. Or maybe two from now. Whenever ABA blanket permissions it
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
So if you haven't taken the LSAT, you could try to take the GRE first and see how you perform, correct? I'm wondering if since you can make a decision on whether or not to report your GRE score, that route might be ideal for individuals who are not too deep into LSAT prep yet. Whereas if you had taken the LSAT first, that score is automatically considered.
Ya and to piggyback off that for those of us who haven't taken a test yet - do you think a high GRE score will have the same "saving" effect as a high LSAT score? Like you know how a super high LSAT can trump your GPA significantly ... that's the effect I'm wondering about
@47064 said:
Wow, this is the school I am aiming for. Now my question is, the LSAT score determines potential scholarship money, will the GRE score determine that as well? ?
Yeah, there definitely seems to be a lot of question marks as of now. I assume that such scores will be considered in terms of percentile. But I also came across an article that quoted an admissions consultant, who reported that schools may not have to report GRE scores over a 3.87 GPA threshold under current guidelines.
Wow, this is the school I am aiming for. Now my question is, the LSAT score determines potential scholarship money, will the GRE score determine that as well? ?
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
So if you haven't taken the LSAT, you could try to take the GRE first and see how you perform, correct? I'm wondering if since you can make a decision on whether or not to report your GRE score, that route might be ideal for individuals who are not too deep into LSAT prep yet. Whereas if you had taken the LSAT first, that score is automatically considered.
Ya and to piggyback off that for those of us who haven't taken a test yet - do you think a high GRE score will have the same "saving" effect as a high LSAT score? Like you know how a super high LSAT can trump your GPA significantly ... that's the effect I'm wondering about
I have a GRE score that expires in three days! I would never actually submit it because I only took it because it was required (the schools didn't actually care what your score was as long as it wasn't abysmal). Though that 5 on writing is looking pretty solid :-p
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
So if you haven't taken the LSAT, you could try to take the GRE first and see how you perform, correct? I'm wondering if since you can make a decision on whether or not to report your GRE score, that route might be ideal for individuals who are not too deep into LSAT prep yet. Whereas if you had taken the LSAT first, that score is automatically considered.
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
This is really useful to know. Thank you for sharing this!
I've read a little bit about the GRE Score Choice policy, which allows candidates to select which schools to report their scores to. Thus, wouldn't individuals who have yet to sit for either the GRE or the LSAT, be able to take a GRE, see what they score, and then decide whether or not to even report it? Or, would these schools openly stating that they will consider all GRE/LSAT scores taken over the previous five years holistically, mean that students will be forced to report every score?
56 comments
I guess they prefer people who go like, "I was thinking of studying political science in grad school but I already have a perfect GRE score, so maybe I should apply to law schools?" to people like me who spend years studying for the LSAT.
https://m.popkey.co/82d9e7/p8xJA.gif
I took the GRE about 6 years ago, and here’s my thoughts re: difficulty, pros/cons.
The GRE is similar to but more difficult than the SAT, but only because the GRE is digital and recalculates based on how well you do on your first sections. If you ace the first English and math sections, you’ll receive very difficult second English and math sections. If you get this very hard second English section, it’s comparable to a hard LSAT RC section—not a walk in the park by any means. The GRE’s all on computer, and you can sign up to take it almost any time you want. You go in, you’re the only one taking the GRE usually, you leave your stuff in a locker, and you sit at a computer station with other people taking other sorts of tests in the same room. You don’t all start at the same time; you don’t all finish at the same time. The LSAT writing process is so highly ritualized that it’s very stressful... the GRE lacks all of that pomp and show.
The GRE is interesting because almost all graduate students end up taking it... math or physics PhDs, anthropology MAs, poetry MFAs, etc. So a lot of people tend to score highly in one section, particularly math since there are mathematicians taking a math test that doesn’t even have calculus on it.
Anecdotally, without studying, I was in the 90-92nd percentile on the GRE, and my LSAT diagnostic was 85th-ish percentile. I did well on the SAT, and I’m slightly better at math than RC, so maybe the GRE just plays to my strengths more than the LSAT.
Part of the difficulty of the LSAT for me is the sustained level of difficulty/intensity throughout the test. The first two sections on the GRE are only moderately difficult, and then if things are going well, you’ll get two actually hard sections. Alternatively, if things aren’t going well, you’ll get two soft-ball sections, realize you bombed the first two, cancel your score, and get on with your day. The LSAT is a whole other animal... you have no idea what section’s coming when, and it could all potentially be very hard. Then, you’re left with thoughts of canceling, speculation on the curve, etc., for weeks, whereas you get your GRE score before you leave the test site.
https://assets.rbl.ms/11253335/980x.gif
@pcainti665 said:
Alright fine. I'll take the damn GRE....STUPID DREAMS THAT SEEM UNREACHABLE
https://media.giphy.com/media/22CEvbj04nLLq/giphy.gif
oh look @pcainti665 found live footage of me screaming at my desk ...
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING! :( :( :( Everytime I see another school accepting the GRE I feel like I'm wasting my time with the LSAT *sobs uncontrollably
Alright fine. I'll take the damn GRE....STUPID DREAMS THAT SEEM UNREACHABLE
https://media.giphy.com/media/22CEvbj04nLLq/giphy.gif
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
I think they need to adjust the LSAT difficulty level comparable to that of GRE, if the latter is gonna be widely accepted which seems to be the trend. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing how the LSAT would/could persist.
Yeah I would be surprised if this has any real impact on admissions stats, at least over the next few years...second what a lot of others said in that I feel like the number of people who would end up applying with only a GRE score are probably people who haven't put a ton of thought into law school anyway.
I would also hope that as schools who begin accepting the GRE, there will be more detailed info released on behalf of their admissions committees about how they compare it to the LSAT. Like is a super high GRE the equivalent of a 178 or something? I would be a little nervous to apply to a law school with just a GRE score at this point, even if it was a great score...I feel like this is some sort of scheme....
I considered grad school when I was just out of college and studied for the GRE..never took it so this isn't a completely accurate statement, but to me it seemed like there is absolutely no comparison in terms of difficulty or the amount of effort required to score in the 90+ percentile.
@gregoryalexanderdevine723 said:
I can only imagine it will be getting harder to get into top schools.
And my anxiety level just increased ten fold.
Should we start studying for GRE!?!? I know someone who studied for GRE for a week and scored 99 percentile. I said “F%$#” when I heard that story.
@tanes25413 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
@pcainti665 said:
Alright fine. I'll take the damn GRE....STUPID DREAMS THAT SEEM UNREACHABLE
https://media.giphy.com/media/22CEvbj04nLLq/giphy.gif
oh look @pcainti665 found live footage of me screaming at my desk ...
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING! :( :( :( Everytime I see another school accepting the GRE I feel like I'm wasting my time with the LSAT *sobs uncontrollably
All I saw was "sobs" and I was like, ooh, she's mad! Lol I kept reading though. All's well! LMAO
Hahahaha!! Lol!
@tristandesinor505 said:
Here's a thought which might lift some spirits. If we all know the LSAT is harder than the GRE, I bet law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE. If law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE they might give a good LSAT score a bump vs. a good GRE score, all things being equal. If all this is true, then I don't think we'd have necessarily wasted our time with the LSAT.
who knows. I mean, I still feel like most of their admitted students will be based off of LSAT scores and not GRE scores. Idk, just an idea though.
Also, your post read like an LR inference question haha.. or no? or am I the only idiot who has let the LSAT consume them? I'm the only one? k cool, brb gonna apply to cooley because correlation DOES imply causation!!!!! sorry I'm just really bored.
Here's a thought which might lift some spirits. If we all know the LSAT is harder than the GRE, I bet law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE. If law schools know the LSAT is harder than the GRE they might give a good LSAT score a bump vs. a good GRE score, all things being equal. If all this is true, then I don't think we'd have necessarily wasted our time with the LSAT.
@insidesurgery489 said:
What about someone who cancelled or/and withdrew from LSAT? The situation is becoming more interesting now.
I guess if there are no reportable LSAT scores, they would take GRE scores.
@pcainti665 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
So Columbia will start accepting GRE in the next cycle (2018-2019 cycle), correct? At the end of this cycle, we will know how many got accepted to HLS using GRE....
Hey @pcainti665, it seems like we have to stick to LSAT for now.
Why does that kill the possibility of high GRE low LSAT? Can’t you just report both? Then you still have the LSAT but can say “look at my GRE to back up my story that I’m good enough”?
Because they have to report LSAT scores to ABA...? I don't know. That's what Dave Killoran says.
This is what Spivey Consulting says:
@insidesurgery489 said:
Who's the Next One?
Guessing Cornell. But that's not based off of anything, haha.
NO.
damn, I hope none of this affects Canadian law schools :neutral:
@sorooshianh185 said:
@beyondsudi482 said:
@stepharizona288 said:
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
So if you haven't taken the LSAT, you could try to take the GRE first and see how you perform, correct? I'm wondering if since you can make a decision on whether or not to report your GRE score, that route might be ideal for individuals who are not too deep into LSAT prep yet. Whereas if you had taken the LSAT first, that score is automatically considered.
Ya and to piggyback off that for those of us who haven't taken a test yet - do you think a high GRE score will have the same "saving" effect as a high LSAT score? Like you know how a super high LSAT can trump your GPA significantly ... that's the effect I'm wondering about
@47064 said:
Wow, this is the school I am aiming for. Now my question is, the LSAT score determines potential scholarship money, will the GRE score determine that as well? ?
Yeah, there definitely seems to be a lot of question marks as of now. I assume that such scores will be considered in terms of percentile. But I also came across an article that quoted an admissions consultant, who reported that schools may not have to report GRE scores over a 3.87 GPA threshold under current guidelines.
https://gre.economist.com/gre-advice/graduate-school-admissions/which-exam-take/gre-vs-lsat-which-exam-should-you-apply-harvard-law
Wow, this is the school I am aiming for. Now my question is, the LSAT score determines potential scholarship money, will the GRE score determine that as well? ?
@beyondsudi482 said:
@stepharizona288 said:
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
So if you haven't taken the LSAT, you could try to take the GRE first and see how you perform, correct? I'm wondering if since you can make a decision on whether or not to report your GRE score, that route might be ideal for individuals who are not too deep into LSAT prep yet. Whereas if you had taken the LSAT first, that score is automatically considered.
Ya and to piggyback off that for those of us who haven't taken a test yet - do you think a high GRE score will have the same "saving" effect as a high LSAT score? Like you know how a super high LSAT can trump your GPA significantly ... that's the effect I'm wondering about
I have a GRE score that expires in three days! I would never actually submit it because I only took it because it was required (the schools didn't actually care what your score was as long as it wasn't abysmal). Though that 5 on writing is looking pretty solid :-p
@stepharizona288 said:
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
So if you haven't taken the LSAT, you could try to take the GRE first and see how you perform, correct? I'm wondering if since you can make a decision on whether or not to report your GRE score, that route might be ideal for individuals who are not too deep into LSAT prep yet. Whereas if you had taken the LSAT first, that score is automatically considered.
@stepharizona288 said:
If you take the LSAT under current rules, it's the score that must be reported to the ABA.
If you have a GRE and an LSAT only the LSAT is considered.
If you only have a GRE and No LSAT they take the GRE score.
I asked for clarification on this yesterday with Dave K and taking the GRE if youn already have an LSAT will do nothing for you.
Also see that a few of the schools saying they take the GRE have conditions beyond the no LSAT. Some require that you're applying to a Dual Enrollment program.
This is really useful to know. Thank you for sharing this!
I've read a little bit about the GRE Score Choice policy, which allows candidates to select which schools to report their scores to. Thus, wouldn't individuals who have yet to sit for either the GRE or the LSAT, be able to take a GRE, see what they score, and then decide whether or not to even report it? Or, would these schools openly stating that they will consider all GRE/LSAT scores taken over the previous five years holistically, mean that students will be forced to report every score?
https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/about/scoreselect/