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4 Likes
LoRs for Old People
Cant Get Right
Yearly + Live Member Sage ⭐ 🍌 7Sage Tutor
So I finished undergrad in ’08, which by the way was a really shitty time to graduate, lol. Anyway. So I haven’t worked with my professors in a long long time and I’m not sure how valuable those letters would be. I also feel a little uncomfortable asking someone to vouch for me who I haven’t worked with for the better part of a decade. At best, all those letters can truthfully say is, “he was a great student ten years ago." I can get great professional letters all day long, but I’ve been doing the same work since I graduated and it’s nothing so impressive that I want multiples. So, I’m really not sure what to do.
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On a serious note, this is actually really tough. I attended the Ask Me Anything Webinar offered by 7sage/Spivey Consulting and the scenario of asking for LORs from professors from long ago was brought up. To my surprise, the hosts (who are former admission committee members from HYS) said academic letters are highly preferred over working letters and that's even for those who graduated long ago. They said it's going to be awkward to ask after such a long time but the value it holds on your application vs a working letter is immeasurable. Long story short, I think an academic letter is what you'll need anyway. I think providing your potential reccomendor with your resume will be helpful with the process. It gives them insight to who you are what you've done so they can write more in depth.
I think faculty members you had a genuinely close and good relationship would be happy to write you a letter, even if you need to jog their memory a bit on the details - they'll remember that they liked you and they thought you were smart. I think Nicole said she had no trouble securing letters from her advisors 10 years after graduation.
I know my undergraduate mentor would be the first one I'd ask for a letter if he were still alive, and I've graduated 20 years ago.
As for the letter not being relevant to the "current you" - I think a lot of the qualities schools are looking for are fairly lasting - if you were smart 8 years ago, barring a progressive mental disorder you're likely to still be smart now. Same goes for intellectually curious, willing to participate, hard-working and so on.
And you can add a second letter from your employer that would enforce that you still have those qualities, and maybe some extras you didn't get a chance to showcase in college.
Good luck hunting!
That makes me feel better @runiggyrun . I did develop some really good relationships with a number of faculty members back in my day. It feels weird, but if that's what law schools want that's what I'll give them.
A buddy of mine was 7 years out of undergrad before asking his research mentor for a LoR. They met in person and chatted over coffee. Needless to say, he got that LoR. If you did something significant with a professor, it's not likely that they have already forgotten about you.
I was told by a few schools that although academic LoRs would be best (since they speak to your ability to "survive" law school), professional LoRs will work if the former simply isn't an option.
To be on the safer side, I also emailed the schools I was interested in. I told them the situation (that I finished school in 2010 and have been working since then) and asked for their advice. They all said that they are definitely content with LORs from my bosses or even people who know my character well (people other than family, that is). However, since I have profs willing to write the LORs, I will use that route since law schools definitely prefer academic references.
Just trying to think outside of the box.
p.s. David's webinar on how to get off wait-lists, while not intended for UnderGrad admissions, was the foundation that ultimately created the opportunity for my daughter to be accepted off of a highly selective wait-list for UG this Fall! Incredibly thankful for his expertise:)
@Chipster Study & @"TheCubicleEscapee, if you have worked or volunteered with any organizations such as Habitat for Humanity, Homeless Shelter, Church etc... you might ask someone in the organization you have worked closely with to write a LOR for you. I think it is helpful if you can provide a copy of your resume, personal statement etc... to whoever you ask to write your letter.
Also just a suggestion because I personally ran into this scenario. Try to get 3 LOR early on so you are not having to wait for it to make your application complete. Additionally if a school only requires 2 LOR & submitting an additional is optional you may want to hold off on sending the 3rd. The reason for this is that often times when you are waitlisted schools suggest that you could send in an additional LOR to add to your file which could help you get off the waitlist. Otherwise you may want to plan ahead & try to get 4 LORs. It took me about a month to get a 4th LOR which was a long wait at this point in the game.
It's hard when you're not in a "managed" job and you're in a position where you're more likely to write than to request a letter of recommendation. I agree it would be weird and potentially ethically questionable to ask patients and current students, but it might be fine to ask someone you've mentored a while ago who is now fully independent (so there's no power imbalance or conflict of interest). LinkedIn allows people to recommend their superiors, and I don't see why a school wouldn't be interested in hearing about your intelligence, eloquence, passion and other qualities as experienced by someone you've mentored.
As a more general remark, I remember distinctly from one of the earlier webinars from several months ago (I think it was David's, but it might have been Mike's) that schools will understand that there comes a point where it's nearly impossible to get academic LOR's, and 20 years or so would qualify. If you still can, great, they'll take that as a sign that you were really memorable, but if not they won't raise an eyebrow. Professors retire, die and get very old just like other people and at some point even if they would be willing, they are no longer able.
I graduated undergrad in 2000, Grad in 2005 and Grad in 2013. I do have one amazing LOR from my 2013 professor. The weird thing about that is, I have a "mentor" that checked my work, but they weren't a teacher, and the same professor oversaw all 18 credits for the professional certificate. Hmm... I will have to go see if I can find another one.
I currently have a LOR from the lawyer I worked with on all of my companies unemployment claims, a manager from my nonprofit who I mentored for a few years and then my new one will be from an academic institution, that I work for as a professor and curriculum designer... I am hoping that one, might help to bridge the missing academic LOR. Hmm... maybe I can get one from my program in 2004... and then drop a different letter.
Great topic
It seems like academic letters shouldnt go stale, especially if they were written close to when you graduated. It seems like that would give the freshest perspective Maybe @"Mike Spivey" can comment.
One thing I've read about asking for letters is to make sure you give your writers an out. Many people feel really uncomfortable saying no, which can leave you with a tepid letter which can be a huge black mark on your application. So what I think I'm going to do is maybe mention some of the schools I hope to be applying to, and then ask specifically for the kind of letter I would need to be competitive at programs like at school X. And then say that I totally understand if, because of how much time has elapsed, they feel like they may not be able to write that kind of a letter. That way they can blame it on the time elapsed/specific quality of letter I'm asking for without feeling so uncomfortable.
So this new perspective leaves me with a follow up question. I feel confident I can get two good academic letters. I have other professors who will certainly still remember me, but with whom I just didn't work as closely with. It sounds like the general rule is, academic letters are preferred over pro letters. Should I go for a third academic letter or do I need the pro letter to provide at least some idea of what I've been up to the last decade?
[Edit: Okay, I remembered another teacher who would almost certainly write me a great letter. She was from freshman year and I've kept up with her and had actually forgotten I'd had a class with her. So if that changes the equation, I can make the third academic one a good one.]