my question is : why don't more ppl quit their jobs to study for the LSAT -- if they are financially able to do so?
i understand that for many ppl, they need to work to pay off loans, living expenses, etc (which are all reasons to do have a job). But I'm more asking for those who have enough savings, family support, etc (where finances would not be a problem).
I'm in favor of part-time work and volunteering when full-time studying for the LSAT (much needed mental breaks is important). But what I'm really confused is why people with demanding 60-hour a week jobs who can't get enough LSAT studying in don't just quit their jobs to study for the LSAT?
the LSAT is the most important part of your application. It's like weighted 4-5 times more than your GPA.
If someone has military experience, tons of prestigious extracurricular activities and awards, and other additional amazing work experiences, but has a 150 LSAT score, it's going to be really tough to get into a t14 law school.
Contrast that to a K-JD candidate who has no work experience but a 175 LSAT score -- who will most likely get into many if not most of the T14.
--
A 170+ LSAT score can literally change your life -- and save you hundreds of thousands of dollars. It will allow you attend a T14 law school and open up many many doors to you --BigLaw, federal clerkships, etc. Many T-20 law schools will also give you full scholarships worth up to $200,000 for a 170+ LSAT score.
Given how important the LSAT is, why don't more people devote themselves to it? The expected rate of return for a 170+ LSAT score and its impact it'll have on saving you money (potentially 200k) and opening up doors for you is MUCH MORE than working as paralegal making 30k a year and not having enough time to adequately prep for the LSAT.
We all know how much work the LSAT takes. Many ppl do upwards of 60 PT's before they take the real test.
Why do people settle for less and allow a 50-hour a week paralegal job (for example) prevent them from reaching their goals?
Financially, those 50 hours are much more valuable when used studying for the LSAT (considering how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you'll potentially save with a 170+ Lsat score)
60 comments
The more I read your post, the more offensive it becomes lmao. So, some points:
If you're working 60 hours a week, you probably need the money.You think someone working that much is just doing it for shits and giggles?
I understand what you're saying about the 175 vs 150 but I'm not sure what point you're making? Are you insinuating that the K-JD didn't work while studying (as if going to class isn't work enough)? I personally worked 15 hours a week while taking a 15 credit hour course load and managed a 173.
"why don't more people devote themselves to it" I'm confused. This whole forum is dedicated to those who devote themselves to LSAT study.
"We all know how much work the LSAT takes. Many ppl do upwards of 60 PT's before they take the real test." You're assuming people doing those 60 PTs aren't working full time. The two are not mutually exclusive.
"Why do people settle for less and allow a 50-hour a week paralegal job (for example) prevent them from reaching their goals?" Again, I'm not sure why you think 1) people are choosing to forego full time study in exchange for working 50 hrs/week. Most people have no choice. and 2) why you think the same people working 50 hrs/week can't reach their goals.
I think you're vastly vastly overestimating the number of people who can take off an extended period of time with no income. For most people it's not a simple choice between working for 30k/year and studying for the LSAT. You think if someone didn't need to work for peanuts, they would? Of course not---it's a necessity for the vast, vast majority of applicants. If you have saved, or have mom and dad, or a partner willing to finance your LSAT study, that's awesome! But I'd say that places you in the wealthiest 1-5% of test takers. Remember, 7Sage is so popular not only because it's an amazing course (it is!) but also because it's relatively cheap. Many people can't afford even the $800 course, never mind giving up their income for 6 months.
I can't imagine thinking "why don't people just give up their income to study for a test! It's so easy!" lmao
This entire thread got me like...
https://media2.giphy.com/media/tyqcJoNjNv0Fq/giphy.gif
WHAT?! You mean I can quit my job and study for the LSAT full time? NO WAY why didn't anyone suggest this to me before?!!!! oh wait, what about my health insurance, rent, car insurance, car payment, phone bill, student loans, food, electricity, water, clothing........ Also, who are these people that are financially secure enough to take off a year to study for the LSAT. Especially straight out of undergrad? I want to meet them.
If I didn't want to survive then I would totally quit my job. It must be nice to have someone to pay for all of this stuff for them... #bitter. haha.
What? Students studying for the LSAT need to make money in order to survive. There are many many students out there that support their families or have children or need to take care of their parents financially. I'm sure if everyone was financially secure then everyone would be studying for the LSAT full-time. Once you are done with undergrad there are loans that you probably need to start repaying and thus, need a job. Your comments and questions make sense, but not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to quit their job.
"Why do people settle for less and allow a 50-hour a week paralegal job (for example) prevent them from reaching their goals?
Financially, those 50 hours are much more valuable when used studying for the LSAT (considering how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you'll potentially save with a 170+ Lsat score)"
Financially, working 50 hours a week is much more valuable because it allows me to have food to put on a plate, and also a plate, and also a roof over my head in the kitchen where I can eat my plate of food.
It's not that folks who haven't quit their jobs aren't thinking about their goals. My goals require me not to be literally homeless. I can't care about hundreds of thousands of dollars in the future if I starve right now.
This reeks of privilege. I understand that the thread comes with the caveat of only applying to those who are financially able to do so, but so few people truly are, and it's not even a matter of "things will be tight but I won't buy my coffee from Starbucks daily and I'll make it through." This post vastly underestimates lower-class and middle-class life, and makes generalizations that sound like those of us forced to work simply don't want a good score badly enough.
This thread be like
"Hey, why don't we go to the ball game this weekend, that could be fun. Do you have any pros or cons about why we should do this?"
"Not everyone has the money to do that, so how can you even ask that question?"
I don’t think anyone is scoffing at the idea of taking time off, but rather at OP’s seeming inability to understand why everyone doesn’t take the time off. As I’ve said, if you have savings or parents to pay for your time off, that is absolutely fantastic!! But that can’t be a consideration for everyone, which is why I’m confused about the purpose of the thread. I just don’t even know what it’s accomplishing.
@btate87833 said:
@tristandesinor505 said:
WHAT?! You mean I can quit my job and study for the LSAT full time? NO WAY why didn't anyone suggest this to me before?!!!! oh wait, what about my health insurance, rent, car insurance, car payment, phone bill, student loans, food, electricity, water, clothing........ Also, who are these people that are financially secure enough to take off a year to study for the LSAT. Especially straight out of undergrad? I want to meet them.
If I didn't want to survive then I would totally quit my job. It must be nice to have someone to pay for all of this stuff for them... #bitter. haha.
thanks for following up! well during college, one has 3 summers. Usually, for your junior summer, if you do a summer analyst position at an investment bank or a consulting firm, you can make approximately 15k. And if you worked those two other summers (let's say you made 5k a summer for those summers), that's another 10k. So that's 25k. If you subtract like 5k for living expenses and other stuff during those summers, that's still 20k left.
so it's doable to use that 20k to full time prep for the LSAT. again, these are also very rough numbers in a rough hypothetical example.
Haha... oh man. I mean, I guess maybe theoretically this is possible? I don't know. I have a hard time imaging someone in undergrad making $15k in a summer as a financial analyst, with no degree. Maybe that's a thing. But also it's not like everyone has the skills or desire to work in banking. Very few of us around here probably did or could have done that.
Even if that were all true, it's not like everyone can just pocket that money and save it up for later. I worked every summer and would take home about $6k for those three months, but then that was my money for books, groceries, utilities, and spending money for the entire other 9 months of the school year. Usually by June I'd have about $20 left in my bank account. And that is with a little bit of cash support from my parents.
I'm guessing you are just coming from a perspective of someone who easily has the financial ability to do all of this, and we're telling you... the vast majority of people in the world and (on this board) don't have that luxury. That is a very rare case that someone has the financial ability to do all of the things you are saying.
Yeah, I'm agreed with the others that I think you are just vastly overestimating the number of people who are able to do that, financially and/or logistically. Even if I had a year's worth of savings (lol that sounds nice), I have some health conditions that mean I absolutely have to have health insurance. And I'm well over the age 26 cut off that I could be on my parents' insurance. Not that my parents would have even allowed me to stay on theirs that long and not be working haha. I come from a very "salt of the earth", working class kind of family. Work isn't an option. I've had a full time job every summer break since I was 14. If I'm not in school, I'm working. My parents would not have been on board with financing a year of me choosing not to work.
Honestly, I don't even think that's necessarily the best path and I tell people not to do that. I think your brain can only absorb so much of this material per day. At the very least, folks who leave a full time job should be part time working or volunteering. It also doesn't look good to schools if someone hasn't been working. They don't really want you to not work for 9 months or a year just to study for this test. They want to see work experience. Law school is a professional school and preparing folks to go out into the workforce. Working 50 hours per week as a paralegal is very valuable, both financially and practically.
Also, studying for the LSAT while working full time speaks well to someone's ability to stay on task and handle a very full workload, which is a good skill to have in law school. Many of us around here work full time because we have to. And I have so much respect for those that work full time and have a spouse and kids and pull this off. That is a solid work ethic and sign of dedication to this path.
But I think what it really comes down to is that most people don't have the luxury of not working for an extended period of time. I know you prefaced your post by acknowledging that, but I think that the number who are able to do that is much, much smaller than you think it is.
Generally, quitting your job to study is a terrible idea. Why would admissions take someone with a 180 who didn't work over someone who got a 175 while working a full time job? It is only getting more competitive so there will be people who are working and get great scores. While it is true that the LSAT is the most important component, it is not the only component; law schools care way more about the whole package, especially where they could probably get enough people with great scores to uphold their medians.
First, not everyone has the resources. See @tristandesinor505 on financial obligations of human beings.
Second, many people not on 7 sage don't know how much studying can impact your score.
Third, getting from a score like 150 to 170+ may take a long time and worse an unknowably long period of time. If you could just lock it in and write off six months or even a year and make the exchange more people would do it, but there is a risk that a 3 monthsb 6 months, or a year will come and go and you won't quite have the resources to keep studying full time and will have burned the resources that you had.
Fourth, It isn't necessarilly just those months of lost income. After you get your score, you are going to apply to law school. That is expensive and will bring all sorts of expenses, but you were going to get those eventually anyway. However, while you are waiting for your admission results you are now either going to be dealing with the stress of dealing with looking for and then hopefully dealing with a new job you will be at for less than a year or you will be unemployed.
Fifth, they can study while working full time and still get all the benefits you listed. It just takes longer. So they don't have to decide between their job and the LSAT. On the additional plus side they may be saving money over that stretch or paying back old loans. They are also developing valuable work experience. For them when they eventually get their score and go to law school they will actually choose the law over the career they have developed rather than a nebulous pool of possibilities.
@jsohn0305774 said:
someone should really close this thread...it's getting out of hand and is no longer productive.
I have to disagree. I think people are arguing their point of view - some of which I don't agree with - but I don't think anyone is bashing anyone else or calling names or being exceptionally rude or getting personal. People feel strongly about OPs post and want to comment for the benefit of others. Its ok to disagree and have arguments and have all weigh in whether we are in agreement or not.
@tristandesinor505 said:
This entire thread got me like...
https://media2.giphy.com/media/tyqcJoNjNv0Fq/giphy.gif
Puleeeze pass the popcorn!
This reeks of privilege. I understand >that the thread comes with the >caveat of only applying to those >who are financially able to do so, >but so few people truly are, and it's >not even a matter of "things will be >tight but I won't buy my coffee from >Starbucks daily and I'll make it >through." This post vastly >underestimates lower-class and >middle-class life, and makes >generalizations that sound like those >of us forced to work simply don't >want a good score badly enough.
-slow claps-
@kimberleemcmillin935 said:
I don’t think anyone is scoffing at the idea of taking time off, but rather at OP’s seeming inability to understand why everyone doesn’t take the time off. As I’ve said, if you have savings or parents to pay for your time off, that is absolutely fantastic!! But that can’t be a consideration for everyone, which is why I’m confused about the purpose of the thread. I just don’t even know what it’s accomplishing.
I agree I don’t understand the purpose of the thread. As with pretty much anything in life, maximizing the amount of time you can take on something will give you the best results in the shortest period of time. This is obvious. Not everyone can do so bc they have responsibilities. I’m not really sure who this thread is addressed to bc not many people can just stop working.
Also, anyone who is mentioning living frugally during undergrad — not everyone realizes they want to go to law school during undergrad nor do they realize how much time lsat studying takes. And, living frugally while making probably minimum wage at a part time job...is not going to save much, if anything. If anything is saved it would go toward student loans.
People also need to save money FOR law school so even if you can take time off, this is just contributing to financial struggle DURING law school.
Just bc taking time off “always” increases ones score, doesn’t mean that it increases one score up to what they want. Going from a 140 diagnostic to a 163 on the test is great but it’s not great for someone who wants a t14.
Great to know for a lot of people commenting on here who probably haven’t entered the workforce — it’s very hard to get a job when you are not currently employed. Hands down you get 2x as much interviews when you’re looking for a job while you’re employed, rather than while you’re unemployed. Even if it’s a brief gap of unemployment. People who take a gap and then want to go back to work are going to have trouble finding a job.
This post just feels like conservatives yelling at poor people to just save money. In the US we don’t get free healthcare or education so idk why anyone would assume that the average person can just quit their job to study...on a basis of a possible way far future financial gain.
I'm just not even sure what point you're trying to get across? Like, are you asking if you should take time off? You keep giving hypotheticals about ROI etc etc. But like... why? You said you want comment/feedback--are you trying to convince someone to stay home and study? The more I read the post the more confused I am lmao.
chiming in here. although i didn't read every single comment posted thus far, i just wanted to say that there are people out there whose goal isn't to get a 170+ and go to a t14. so lets say in this hypothetical universe, we all have the time and money and our obligations being taken care of -- no responsibilities and time to do whatever you please. do you think every person with these luxuries will be spending 100% of their free time studying for the lsat? i doubt it. there are different people with different aspirations.
one of my friends, his parents pay for everything, parties a bunch. spends his parent's hard earned money on cocaine and drinks/food. studies for the lsat maybe twice a month and doesn't BR. he has all the time in the world -- it's just not as important to him. there's a difference between can't and won't!
"Some people would rather just take one full year to go full time and try to knock out the LSAT ASAP, whereas others may spread it out over like 5 years while working."
Yeah... taking off work entirely for 9 months would be awesome. I'm sure everyone studying would do that if they could. It's entirely not an option for 99% of us. You keep making it sound like people can choose that and just go to law school sooner. Not how life works.
@vincelee000629 said:
@mickeycaleb788
I've edited my posts to your request. I did try to confirm my numbers by visiting your website before posting, and could not find open price information so I assumed the $5k+ numbers I had seen thrown around on other forums put your firm in a similar strata to the other very expensive admissions consulting companies.
Sincere apologies. I wasn't trying to misrepresent the price of your services, rather to make a point that people spend a lot of money on these services and your excellent branding led me to assume your firm was the cream of the crop in admissions consulting, the "Rolls Royce" of law school admissions if you will.
No worries at all. I appreciate your kind words and agree that when I hear the 10k price tag for other firms and look at their backgrounds, I cringe. I really have tried not to make anything I have ever said on this board a plug for our business so I'll stop here. Again, thanks for the course correction!
-Mike
@vincelee000629 said:
@sunnytsao313794 said:
I agree I don’t understand the purpose of the thread. As with pretty much anything in life, maximizing the amount of time you can take on something will give you the best results in the shortest period of time. This is obvious. Not everyone can do so bc they have responsibilities. I’m not really sure who this thread is addressed to bc not many people can just stop working.
Do a search for "quit job" on the 7sage forums and you'll find dozens of threads from students who are considering quitting their job for a short period of time to study for the LSAT. This is a real choice that many students can make, and it has a lot of pros and cons attached to it. I think a discussion like the one we're having on this thread is actually quite fruitful.
This post just feels like conservatives yelling at poor people to just save money. In the US we don’t get free healthcare or education so idk why anyone would assume that the average person can just quit their job to study...on a basis of a possible way far future financial gain.
I mean, I can completely sympathize with the students who are not able to take off work to study for this exam. I think it's RIDICULOUS that this exam requires 500-1000+ study hours of preparation. I think it's CRIMINAL that LSAC continues to charge absurd amounts of money for test licensing which makes all prep material extremely expensive. And it's a straight up INSULT to the supposedly meritocratic admissions process that applicants are allowed to shell out $10,000+ for consulting packages from Spivey and similar companies. The entire LSAT is just one gigantic class barrier that unapologetically and unambiguously gives the middle finger to the less privileged in society.
But it's precisely for this reason that students can and should approach preparing for the exam in the best/most efficient ways possible. For those that can take time off work to study for the exam (and that is who the OP addressed this post to, no less no more), then it is an option that is definitely worthy of consideration. In purely financial terms, taking time off work to study for the LSAT can be well worth it -- that's why we're having this discussion.
Hi, I'm not going to get involved in this debate, none of my business and I can see both sides for sure. But since the price amount you suggested we charge is exceptionally more than our highest package, I would ask that you not make up that number for the sake of an argument. You are correct, there is at least 1 firm that charges in that ballpark, but it isn't us. Many thanks, -Mike
@btate87833 said:
thanks for following up! well during college, one has 3 summers. Usually, for your junior summer, if you do a summer analyst position at an investment bank or a consulting firm, you can make approximately 15k. And if you worked those two other summers (let's say you made 5k a summer for those summers), that's another 10k. So that's 25k. If you subtract like 5k for living expenses and other stuff during those summers, that's still 20k left.
so it's doable to use that 20k to full time prep for the LSAT. again, these are also very rough numbers in a rough hypothetical example.
I'd like to point out, also, that the VERY REALITY of this is really not true for probably 80% of folks. First of all, how did you land that "summer analyst position at an investment bank or consulting firm"? If you did, you probably came from a place of privilege -- and I'm speaking for myself, as I worked some pretty nice internships in college. Oftentimes, you had the connections to get the position or interview. At the very least, you had the background - class, education - that made you seem like a good fit for the position or gave you the past experience that you put on that resume application. You probably didn't come from a socioeconomic background that would make you stand out like a sore thumb among your investment bank/consulting firm colleagues. You live in a city where those companies exist, or you have the financial ability to relocate for the summer. You don't have to go home and help your family run their business/take care of your siblings while your parents work multiple jobs/etc.
Secondly, how did you save all that money? You only subtract 5k for living expenses and other stuff during "those summers." But what if your summer money includes supporting yourself the whole year round? It also assumes that you're not sending that money to your family, who needs it/using it for medical bills for yourself or your family/etc.
OP, I'm guessing you might be pretty young. At the very least, given that you use the words "usually" and act like these summer activities are a given, I'm guessing you don't have a lot of friends who come from outside your socioeconomic background. But OP, as someone who did many of the above activities you suggest, I'm telling you that summers like these/ours are really, really not the "usually" for many or most folks.
@btate87833 That's not a fair comparison. You cannot compare a ten point discrepancy. Further, you should be comparing the 75 to the 25 percentiles. The difference between 170 and 160 is night and day. Not only that there is reason to believe that someone who is working with a coming story has a better chance of getting in with someone who had the numbers and nothing else. Law school is more than a numbers game.
Wow this seems to be a heavy thread. One that I find a bit ironic because I have actually been struggling with a decision the past week to leave my job. There were many variables to this but the main reason is the LSAT. I am 28 and for the past 5 years I have worked at a job that has done nothing more than pay the bills. This last year however I have learned more about myself and realized that money does not buy me happiness. But it pays the bills so it became a means to an end until I could get into law school. However, I have studied for the past year with very little progress because working full time and studying is the hardest thing to do. This is coming from someone who has worked since she was 15. I wasn’t someone who had the privilege of not working during undergrad. I had a full time job all 4 years. For one of those years I even worked an overnight job and after getting off at 7am I would head to my 8am class. Needless to say I have always done what I had to do to survive. But I have hit my limit.
This is why I understand what the OP is saying. A few months time off to study for a test that could literally turn into thousands of dollars in scholarship money is something to consider. Especially if law school is your true goal. I feel that most people like myself think it’s impossible to just up and quit a job because bills are due, you need food and pretty much everything in life cost money. But sometimes it wouldn’t hurt to push past that wall of no to a point where you say, if it is possible, then how could I do it? For me it came down to how much money do I have saved, how much do I need, and how long can I go without a job? The next step was when do I need to go back to work and how will I make money in the mean time? I am signed up for the September test. I have less than 2 months to get where I need to be and I want to give myself every possible chance to get there. If I can’t then at least I know I tried and at least I know I need more time. I know that the longer I allow my job to take priority of my life the longer I will be unhappy. It’s not always about how fast you want to get somewhere. It’s also about how long can I survive chasing things like money instead of my dreams. I won’t sugar coat things though. It is scary! Going from having a secure job to what ifs is like jumping out of an airplane. At first it’s scary! And for most people it sounds like the dumbest thing to ever do. But eventually you will remember you have a parachute, you will use it and reach the ground.
With all that being said I do think one thing to note is that I am not trying to get to the 170s and I have no interest in going to a T14 school. My passion is helping kids and becoming a child advocacy attorney. I just want to get a decent enough score to get into school and get a scholarship. I will not be making $190,000 right out of school and honestly maybe ever. So I know my best route is to reduce my loans as much as I can and that is by studying and giving my all to the LSAT. Also I just paid off my undergrad loans 2 weeks ago so that is a little less of a financial burden.
By no means am I saying anyone should up and quit their job and focus on the LSAT. I am just saying that there are more possibilities than many people think there are. If I saw this post last month I would agree with everyone else. I just hit a point in my life where I had to reevaluate my priorities, push past my fears and open myself up to those possibilities.
Flip side: Kid 1 doesn't work, somehow survives on fairy dust in the meantime, kills the lsat and gets a scholarship. Assuming he's not still surviving on fairy dust at his new school, he encounters fees and racks up bills or loans to cover things that scholarships don't (which is everything except tuition and maybe fees). There might be a possibility of paid summer internship, but it doesnt pay the bills immediately, and is iffy at best.
Kid 2 does work, takes longer to kill the lsat. Gets the same scholarship, same internships and all, only 3 years later. Spent 3 years working. Saved some money, so he doesn't have to get loans to cover as much of his cost of living/ fees/ books, etc.
Which actually comes out better in their lives by the time they finish law school?
Sure, one is 31 and the other is 34. But that doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things.
Just wanted to join the discussion to give my perspective. I guess I would fall into the somewhat full time LSAT study group. I”m a self employed equity/options trader that’s how I afford the bills. Everyday I would spend hours reading the markets then I would study the LSAT. As previously mentioned not knowing the definite amount of time it’ll take to to reach 170 is extremely burdensome. I’ve been studying for about 18 months now and I still can’t hit it. Was it worth it ? I can’t answer since I’m still trying to hit it. In this time frame I could have gotten my certified professional accountant designation but I gave up everything for the LSAT. Seeing my friends move further in life while I’m stuck with trying to get a score on a test that won’t even matter for long has drastic consequences on your mental health haha. I can only do this since I was fortunate enough to find a skill that let me paid the bills while LSATing. Hope I make it soon . Darn you RC !